We were delighted to see Life’s 4 Living posting a response (written by Lynton Guest, AKC) to our serious concerns about their practises. However, we were disappointed to see that they resorted to (long, boring) ad hominem attacks on us bloggers, instead of address our substantive points. To be blunt, we might well be malevolent and sinister - my mum would be so proud - but what is important is whether or not our criticisms are right and whether or not Life’s 4 Living are dealing appropriately with their (potentially vulnerable) clients. Unfortunately, Lynton fails to address this. Read his comment in full here, and our response (quoting extensively from Lynton, and based on a blog comment) below.
Holfordwatch: A Combination of the Sinister and the Secretive
Thank you for our new strapline - eeeeeeeeeexcellent.
every allegation made against the charity in these postings is demonstrably wrong.
We’ll look forward to a refutation of these points in your future posts, but you certainly haven’t demonstrated this here. If you feel that everything we’re saying it wrong - it isn’t - then it’s a shame you concentrated on boring ad hominem arguments instead of more substantive points.
This site is one of the strangest I have ever seen.
You haven’t seen much of the Internet, then, I’m guessing.
It is therefore a good idea to take some time to examine the secrecy of Holfordwatch more closely. On the web-site, in the section entitled, ‘About Us’, it states: “We’re not oversharing on biographical details….because we find it distracts from a critique of the science and ideas.” This is bizarre. Exactly how putting a name to Holfordwatch’s malicious gossip would be distracting is not explained. Indeed, in over twenty years of being in journalism and around reporters I have never heard this argument made before. Following the logic of Holforwatch’s reasoning, academic journals would refuse to include the names of the authors of learned papers in case they ‘distracted’ from any ‘critique’ of the science. This is nonsense, designed, as far as I can see, to provide a flimsy cover for a lack of transparency.
We’re neither professionals nor journalists - we don’t get paid for doing this, and would rather avoid tedious ad hominem arguments about our personalities. Anonymous blogging isn’t exactly anything new, and readers are free to either engage with our ideas, or not. By the way, it’s still common practice for journals to anonymise papers prior to peer review.
It all makes you wonder what exactly Holfordwatch is afraid of.
Well, it goes with the territory, but we do get the occasional outbreak of cyberstalking and threat of violence and/or death. Nothing we take that seriously - but we don’t think our identities are particularly relevant, and this is another disincentive to giving them out.
the whole enterprise smacks of disproportionate prejudice on a monumental scale.
For example? - where do we say something that’s inaccurate. I find this especially daft coming from a supporter of a charity which claims that all Chinese people - the whole billion of them? - rely on traditional Chinese medicine?
Holfordwatch is in some way connected to Ben Goldacre
We like Ben’s work, if that’s what you mean. He doesn’t write, edit, run or own this blog. As for using the term ‘bad science’ - it’s not exactly patented (or original to Ben) and I’m sure Ben would not object to its use. By the way, is ‘Life’s 4 Living’ an original name?
Holfordwatch feels free to assert, without any supporting evidence, that Russell’s explanation for them is “less than exculpatory.”…Is Holfordwatch saying that helping to raise funds for a good cause is wrong?
Russell himself admits having sex with former patients. This is certainly a ‘less than exculpatory’ response to the allegations that were made - frankly, I think we were rather polite here.
The Barefoot Doctor is not and never has been in contact with any of those people whom Life’s 4 Living Trust helps in its charitable works, be they vulnerable or otherwise…the author completely misunderstands the involvement of Stephen Russell, whose role is clearly restricted to accompanying (i.e. helping with) the making of a film of the trip. It was never envisaged that Russell would be directly involved with the patients. And the proof of this is that Russell never met any of the individuals concerned. Had Holfordwatch followed normal journalistic practice and asked the charity to explain its position, it would have been made aware of the true situation. Instead it failed to seek any answers and simply went ahead and assumed its own view. Or at least we think that’s what it did.
We trusted one of Life’s 4 Living’s own PDFs on this. Russell is quoted as saying that “for the best part of a year now I’ve been working with Life’s 4 Living. We are doing some fantastic work with children suffering from life limiting or life threatening conditions, many of whom have little or no medication available to treat them” (p. 2). The same document states that “Accompanied by the Barefoot Doctor (AKA Stephen Russell), the film follows a group of ten children and young adults, aged between 5-21 years old, who suffer from severe illness or disability that is beyond current medical assistance, on a journey of healing and discovery. This journey will take them all the way to China” (p. 3).
If Life’s 4 Living does not want journalists and/or bloggers to presume that the discussion of their activities on their own website is accurate, perhaps they should add a disclaimer to this effect? If Life’s 4 Living did not mean to say that Barefoot Doctor was working with their clients, they should look to revise this document.
Holfordwatch then turns its guns on a director of the charity, Claire Sutton. The most it can say about her is that she expressed a desire to help sick children who might benefit from a fully-paid-for trip to China to see if they could experience any improvement in their conditions through undergoing traditional Chinese treatments.
We do say rather more about Sutton. For example we point out that she espouses the novel belief that healing energy can be transmitted down a phone line. We were kind enough not to mention that she has been spamming a message board for people with MS in order to promote Life’s 4 Living. Which seems rather odd, given that a Life’s 4 Living supporter is now lecturing us about Internet etiquette.
Oh well, maybe this is alternative etiquette.
One such allegation is that “people” went to a training school and “died of cancer”. Perhaps Holfordwatch would be better employed investigating the huge numbers of “people” who have died of cancer at the hands of conventional medicine but this, of course, would not fit in with the author’s prejudices. This matter will be fully examined in subsequent postings.
We do do things other than this blog - and have analysed other issues elsewhere. However, the important question - completely dodged by Lynton here - is whether or not people died of cancer at the training school we referred to. Even if ‘conventional’ medicine were evil, this does not excuse nasty things done in the name of ‘alternative’ medicine.
To be honest - Lynton - I’m annoyed. I’ve waded through a near-enough 2000 word rant from you, and found remarkably few substantive issues to engage with. We do make a number of significant criticisms of Life’s 4 Living - perhaps, in your next response, you might like to address some of them, instead of obsessing about who we are or are not?
118 responses so far ↓
Wulfstan // March 3, 2008 at 6:04 pm
Holfordwatch, sinister and secretive? Lacking a sense of perspective, much? The Stasi were sinister and secretive. A blog that writes up opinion in a public spot for people to read and gives links to its sources or the Stasi - back in the not so-distant past, which one might have given you a feeling of menace or unease? But then, you seem to discover shadowy evil forces in many places, judging by your Michael Jackson tome.
Thrilled to know about the AKC, Lynton. At the present rate, it is a 6 quid qualification from King’s College London and a nice reward for 3 years of optional lectures (and no exams). As a matter of interest, how much did it cost back whenever you picked it up and squirrelled it away to parade on the internet?
From my viewpoint in the stands, it doesn’t look like the Holfordwatch authors are the ones who are misunderstanding the text as written.
By the way, Lynton - do you endorse the general claims for phenomena, healing of Aids, cancer, CP etc? Do you find it appropriate to diagnose cancer and such without diagnostic tests from appropriately qualified clinicians?
brainduck // March 3, 2008 at 6:07 pm
Questions for L4L:
Do the ‘practitioners’ to whom you refer people tell them to stop taking conventional medicine, or not? Why (not)?
Do they, or do they not, tell people that they can be cured with ‘energy’? If so, what evidence is this based on?
I look forward to a reply - thanks.
HommeVert // March 3, 2008 at 10:33 pm
The best way to pay Holford for his valuable services is through the Homeopathic Pound — accepted by all good “Integrated Therapy” practitioners: 1. Take one £5 note; 2. Take five large bin bags full of shredded waste paper; 3. Insert £5 note into first bag and shake for 2 minutes; 4. Take a single shred from Bag 1 and place in Bag 2; 5. Shake Bag 2 for 2 minutes; 6. Take single shred from Bag 2 and place in Bag 3; 7. Repeat procedure until Bag 5 has been shaken for 2 minutes; 7. Empty Bag 5 and extract one shred of paper.
This single piece of shredded paper is now worth £5×5x5×5x5 = £3,125.00 homeopathic pounds, which should be enough to pay for a course of one of Dr Holford’s therapies. It’s THAT SIMPLE!!
Life's 4 Living Trust Ltd // March 4, 2008 at 11:22 am
Hi guys, great to see your prompt answer to my posting.
This could go on for years! I’ll answer you on this at a later date but first ill want to post responses to your other two articles. I’d just like to say for now that you must realise it’s not good enough to dismiss criticism of your approach as being ad hominem as if invoking this phrase answers anything at all.
We’ll exchange more love letters with you soon.
Lynton Guest AKC
Wulfstan // March 4, 2008 at 12:25 pm
As ever, Lynton - obsessing on the courtesies that you don’t understand, rather than the content. Also, suggest that you look up critical thinking.
It really doesn’t look like you have the wherewithal it takes to sustain an argument for any decent length of time.
Nobody but you and those like you is interested in anything but the issues raised about the ethics of allowing someone who has admitted to dubious behaviour to be in the proximity of vulnerable people.
Plus the practitioner issues etc. etc. And what about those amazing power of diagnosis for cancer and a host of other fatal illnesses which can be cured with the appropriate application of energy and money?
jonhw // March 4, 2008 at 12:50 pm
Lynton - yes, it is sufficient to dismiss your arguments as ad hominem. Wikipedia defines ad hominem argument as:
That’s a perfect description of what you’ve done in your first reply - failing to address our arguments, and instead complaining (at tedious length) that we blog anonymously. Where you did respond - inadequately - to our concerns, we did answer your responses. But - come on - do you really expect us to offer a serious response to your claim that we’re malevolent *giggles in malevolent fashion*.
pv // March 4, 2008 at 1:02 pm
I think Lynton’s response above says everything anyone needs to know. Obfuscation is all he is interested in. He has no intention whatsoever of answering any of the original criticisms and questions. Instead he’s content to misrepresent and malign them, then pretend he is the victim which is the issue he will run with.
All standard quack/charlatan procedure. After all, we wouldn’t want to put any doubts into the minds of vulnerable or desperate people that might prevent them from being duped.
Life's 4 Living Trust Ltd // March 4, 2008 at 3:19 pm
Guys, guys! You don’t like it up you do you? As soon as someone attempts, from an independent perspective, to defend Life’s 4 Living and start a proper debate, you decide to attack me and my qualifications. And you accuse me of an ad hominem argument! Still, it’s ok I’m a big boy now. Bring it on.
I really don’t have the time to answer all the prejudiced comments of your rabid obsessions but I’d like to take this opportunity to at least correct one of many factual errors I’ll deal with the rest later. Wulfstan, in order to obtain an AKC, you have to be studying for a degree at Kings College, then take an intensive two year extra course which involves attending numerous and lengthy lectures, produce a minimum of over 20 essays and – pay attention Wulfstan – take a number of exams. However, if it bothers you that much I shall refrain from including it in my postings.
My honours degree in Ancient and Medieval History is also from Kings College, one of the recognised top universities in the world. Of course, Wulfstan, we don’t know from which second rate institution you obtained your degree, if you have one at all, since we don’t know who you are. I at least am using my real name and am not hiding like some frightened rabbit like you. I would also like to add that I have had five books published and have written extensively for some of the greatest newspapers and other publications in the world, too numerous to mention here. How many books have you had published Wulfstan?
I am sure you lot will have nothing better to do than attack me further. We should, therefore, have a great time.
Lynton Guest
gimpy // March 4, 2008 at 3:38 pm
Lynton, qualifications have no bearing on evidence. It seems to me that the good people at Holfordwatch have asked you questions that you cannot or will not answer. Throwing degree certificates in peoples faces does not win arguments (and paper cuts hurt). Even if one did assume that degrees confer automatic authority, a degree in Ancient and Medieval History does not imply expertise or knowledge in ethics, science or medicine, which are all areas you have been pulled up on. However, I might concede that you have expertise in witchcraft, blood letting and humorism but these are medically hypotheses that have long since been discredited.
pv // March 4, 2008 at 6:43 pm
You are really funny, you know, and obviously mightily impressed with yourself. I don’t expect the words vain and pompous ever come to mind when viewing your impressive personage in the mirror.
Your narcissism aside, it matters little what your “qualifications” are, their relevance or what you think of them. None of those things give any guidance as to your motivation, honesty or integrity.
It would say something for your integrity if you actually answered the initial criticisms instead of playing games (patronizing if I may say so) and pretending to be a victim of an attack.
Your pretence that legitimate questions are somehow to be regarded as an assault on your integrity rather does indicate that you have much you wish to hide. It speaks volumes about your intentions when you are so willing to indulge in obfuscation when what has been requested is openness and perhaps a little truthfulness.
jdc325 // March 4, 2008 at 7:18 pm
Lynton clearly thought that he was either plugging himself on Richard and Judy: “I would also like to add that I have had five books published and have written extensively for some of the greatest newspapers and other publications in the world, too numerous to mention here.”
Or arguing in the school playground: “How many books have you had published Wulfstan?”
I fail to see what writing several books has to do with commenting on health issues - frankly, I’d rather take health advice from Catherine Collins than Catherine Cookson.
Kat // March 4, 2008 at 8:16 pm
“Guys, guys! You don’t like it up you do you? As soon as someone attempts, from an independent perspective, to defend Life’s 4 Living and start a proper debate, you decide to attack me and my qualifications”
Er - only one thing wrong here, Lynton. You haven’t actually done or said anything to defend the criticisms about L4L. Maybe when (if) you do, the blog can respond. But until you do, they’ve stated their position, and you have said you’d respond. All you’ve done so far is moan that the nasty people have said unkind things about your friends, so you’ll say nasty thigns back, but you haven’t actually answered any of the criticisms. You are just trying to divert the argument away from the topic. Which makes me think that L4L have no response.
(And since you’re so keen on knowing people qualifications, I’ve got 3 degrees, have written 3 books and published lots of peer-reviewed papers - none of which has sod all to do with the arguments in this blog)
Reality Check! // March 4, 2008 at 10:05 pm
Well, I thought this site was about “commenting on health issues”, but after reading everything… I think you people really need a reality check, putting it politely. You want some TRUTH? Here’s some…
20 years ago, I started my Degree in Chemistry, Biochemistry & Physiology at Sheffield Uni. Then I got sick, and my GP sent me to hospital, where the specialist seemed very excited and happy to see me… He said there was no cure, but could they experiment on me with some drugs they were developing? As the side effects were horrendous, I said ok, but threw the pills in the bin outside, and decided to look for alternatives. As a student away from home, I couldn’t afford to fully explore CAM, but although the homoeopathy I tried helped, I didn’t believe it could really cure me, as I had read the medical text books and knew I was terribly sick, and as a total believer in science, I really thought the CAM people must be a bunch of weirdos, and didn’t trust them.
Within a year, I was so ill, I dropped out of Uni, and went to an A&E department. The doctor checked me, said I was fine, didn’t have ‘my’ illness, just a fever, and sent me home. Within a week, I ended up in an NHS hospital - but only after my petrified parents had to pay a lot of money to some private ’specialist’ to get me past the waiting list. The first day I met a woman who was in for her 21st intestinal operation; they had made a mistake on the 1st, and all the others were to correct that. In my ward, I also saw them experimenting on one guy near me, each day discussing what to try next (he was half asleep most the time, so they felt free to talk about him like he was a lab rat). One day he jumped up, screamed “help, the doctors are killing me”, and pulled all the drug feed tubes out of his arms. He died quickly after that, and I faked my temperature the next day (in case I was next), so I could be discharged. However, I had agreed to take their drugs. At first, they had seemed to help reduce my symptoms, and I was very happy… but after some time everything got much worse, and a week later, I almost bled to death. Then I read the small print, which said the drugs were contra-indicative for ulcers. A large part of my illness was… ulcers. I was shocked that hospital specialists could be doing this, and I stopped the drugs, but had terrible withdrawal symptoms on top of my original problems, which had come back, but worse.
After that, with financial help from my parents, I invested a lot in CAM, trying every wacky thing out there. They ALL helped me stay alive, and get back, slowly, my health, but especially that naughty Chinese stuff you guys love to criticise… and, frankly, IT SAVED MY LIFE. I don’t understand it, because I was educated to be a western scientist, BUT IT WORKS.
Lifes4living are clearly trying to help people, and all you appear to be doing is pulling their web site etc to pieces, and saying 2+2=5. I’ve studied it, and whilst no one’s perfect, they have some very satisfied people giving positive testimonials to the great results and relief of suffering for those sick kids, but all you care about is some salacious gossiping about “what if”. People, try following the NEWS, and you’ll find stories almost every day of doctors & NHS incompetence/ bad practice/ even murder, etc etc.
Are you being paid by drugs companies, or what?
You ‘quack attackers’, well, IF YOU’D HAVE HAD YOUR WAY, YOU’D HAVE BANNED CAM ALONG TIME AGO… AND HAVE MY DEATH AND MILLIONS OF OTHERS USING CAM ON YOUR HANDS…
Is that what you really want? I want common sense to prevail, and CAM to be in every NHS hospital in the UK, not just the few it’s in now.
Thank you.
LeeT // March 4, 2008 at 10:55 pm
Reality Check,
I had a similiar experience to yours. In my final year at university I went down with a fever. It felt like a really bad dose of flu. Then I discovered some red spots on my arms. An ambulance was called …
No wait, before I finish my story do tell me what I should have done and how common sense CAM could have helped my problem.
LeeT // March 4, 2008 at 11:04 pm
I had a look at the syllabus of the “AKC Course for General students”. I noticed that the former chaplain of the second rate university I graduated from teaches the ethics section. Did you bunk off that part of the course?
Catherine Collins RD // March 5, 2008 at 12:03 am
Mr Guests comment:
“You don’t like it up you do you?”
is rather disturbing comment, given the subject matter to which he is responding.
The issues raised in the original article are definitely thought-provoking. I would have thought Mr Guest would have simply answered each point objectively. The approach taken does nothing to inspire confidence in an organisation I have never heard about before the postings on BadScience, Quackometer and here.
And Reality Check, your post is interesting. However, viewing from the ‘conventional’ clinical angle, CAM has little to recommend its practice other than the placebo effect. I have many examples of CAM compromising, rather than supporting the health of an individual. The only problem is that unlike herbal remedies, I can’t report it as there is no central way of reporting adverse incidents. And absence of reporting does not equal safety in use, however persuasive the CAM practitioner.
I would be interested in a more measured reply from L4L representatives…
pv // March 5, 2008 at 12:35 am
Life’s 4 Living // March 1, 2008 at 6:26 pm
Still waiting! So far nothing but whingeing and ad homs. Where’s the refutation?
Nutritional therapist // March 5, 2008 at 7:36 am
Hi catherine
Its funny how this website critisises Holford appearing on T.V and i keep seeing your face pop up quite often.
The last time this happened i noticed that you are carrying a few extra pounds. This does not set a good example to the kids watching does it.
Maybe see a NT in your area and they should be able to help you.
Dr Aust // March 5, 2008 at 11:30 am
Some of us here have qualifications too , Lynton; scientific ones. And we still think you are talking claptrap.
For what it’s worth, mine are a science B.Sc. and Ph.D., both from well-known “just sub Oxbridge” Big City Universities, and 25 years as a university scientist in another similar Univ teaching and doing biomedical research, with the usual 40+ papers in science journals.
This doesn’t, of course, make me an expert in Reiki or nutrition, or how to promote “energy cures”. But it does make me think I have some skills in spotting a scientific idea backed by evidence when I see one. And also that I can tell when I see the opposite.
The essence of the critique of Holford and people like yourselves is that most of what is presented to the gullible as “evidence based” actually ignores. or flies directly in the face of, the body of scientific and medical evidence… When this same sleight-of-hand and misrepresentation is being used to sell product, or solicit for donations, we become very cynical.
Do you have any actual answers about the things said, or are you just about the name calling?
jdc325 // March 5, 2008 at 11:49 am
Nutritional Therapist - Spiteful and irrelevant. This comment does not show you in a good light.
Reality Check -
“I don’t understand it, because I was educated to be a western scientist, BUT IT WORKS”. I call hoax.
If alternative medicine worked, it wouldn’t be ‘alternative’ - it would simply be medicine.
Lynton - Where’s the refutation?
gabby // March 5, 2008 at 12:27 pm
I found your site through researching the Life’s4living outfit. My concerns about them were raised because they are forever rattling buckets for money outside our local stores in Islington. I understood, from the Charity Commissioners, that street collections are allowed on the basis of one per year per charity, yet Life’s4Living are at it all the time. I thought it was some sort of scam but apparently it is a registered charity. But I am sure they are breaking the law by always collecting.
Claire // March 5, 2008 at 12:29 pm
It must be obvious by now, Nutrtional Therapist, that the criticisms do not arise purely from the fact that Mr Holford appears on TV programmes. It is the accuracy of the information given and claims made during those appearances which is at issue. Were he to make statements based on robust evidence, there would be no problem, surely? And please, leave out the nasty digs about appearance. They have no place in adult, reasoned debate.
Johny // March 5, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Its sad to see how Holford Watch is following same modern journalism (or blogging) path with publishing stories without making proper investigation and asking right question and right people.
Making judgment just by reading the L4L website and not trying to see whether there is some truth in the whole thing is truly irresponsible. I wonder do they know how much damage they made to this highly successful healing method which produced many fantastic health results. Not just with MS people but with many other incurable health disorders.
Just by having freedom of speech and modern communication methods does not mean that you can attack everything around you without taking any moral consequences.
I suggest that people from Holford Watch give a call to L4L and ask phone numbers of 5-10 people who can directly give testimonials about their results. They will be very glad to do that because they are very clear how they get their results.
This is real. Everything else is just philosophy.
And if you still care to be a voice of the truth you would publish these testimonials on your websites.
But Im afraid that HW does not care about truth.
Being negative attracts more readers. Who want to read positive news.
Sad but true.
But luckily organizations like L4L will continue to bring light on this planet.
And it will get stronger.
superburger // March 5, 2008 at 3:41 pm
“Its sad to see how Holford Watch is following same modern journalism (or blogging) path with publishing stories without making proper investigation and asking right question and right people.”
I didn’t think *anyone* could criticise HW for the depth of investigation, and their willingness to engage with anyone as they raise some very interesting questions about Holford, and some of the other people and organisations in the world of nutrition and CAM.
Of course, some of the people HW choose to engage with seem unable to respond and instead resort to tedious insults.
Reality Check! // March 5, 2008 at 3:48 pm
Dr Aust, Johnw, pv, Wulfstan etc, no response from you? Is that because you don’t have any
real answers, or you just like being negative, or because you can only attack from the safety of your science books, which I know so well, but you don’t know how to respond to the reality of life? If you start trying to have a serious discussion, at least you should continue. Clearly some of you don’t like reality! But I do…
Oh, sorry and thanks jdc325… you like hoaxes, huh? Sorry, I’m for real*, so better you don’t play poker; you’ll probably lose a lot of money. And thanks LeeT … but I don’t think you really have had ANY similar experiences to mine. But your ’story’ sounds very imaginative. Were you perhaps studying creative writing at Uni?
OK, more details are clearly needed (*by the way, I have copies of all the original doctors/ hospital records, and am still being monitored by hospitals, to this day). In 1985 I was diagnosed with Ulcerative Colitis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulcerative_colitis), after having a biopsy. They told me I could die from this, but there was no actual cure and no explanation for it either. Later, when I went to the A&E department, I had been suffering from constant diareah and bleeding for many, many months, and the fever, although severe, was just another symptom I had to deal with. I told the A&E doctor all this and he examined me, and said “you haven’t got Ulcerative Colitis, just go home, and use cold water compresses on your forehead to keep the fever down”. I asked him, what area of medicine was he specialised in, he said “Cardiology”. I left, thinking this country’s medicine provision is in real trouble… and so am I.
When I was finally admitted into hospital, and they did another diagnosis; of course, it confirmed that I had severe Ulcerative Colitis (basically the last stage, fulminant disease. They say unless treated, fulminant disease leads to death). This didn’t stop them giving me drugs that were contra-indicated for ulceration, but hey, they were just experts in gastroenterology, doing the best they could, according to what the scientific knowledge base was telling them to do, which it seems doesn’t in actuality include trying to heal someone.
Which leads me nicely to Catherine Collins, (RD!), apparently a top, expert Dietician, according to the western, scientific approach…
“And Reality Check, your post is interesting”
“Interesting”… I’ve heard that before, from the hospital doctor who used to be my Outpatient clinician years ago. He once told me, “You have the equivalent of severe 3rd degree burns inside your large intestine, and there’s no way you can be cured. His answer was that the only ‘choice’ I had was to just get my Colon removed. I thought he’d be interested in how I had made a good recovery, by using CAM. At first he didn’t recognise me, because I was looking healthy. But then when he did, he was shocked that I could have got so much better. But was he interested in exploring the CAM I had used? No. He didn’t have time, not any real interest, but said it was interesting, and wished me good luck.
Catherine, you continue:
“However, viewing from the ‘conventional’ clinical angle, CAM has little to recommend its practice other than the placebo effect.”
Firstly, do you follow the news, my dear? Did you see what another expert recently said:
“Lead researcher Professor Irving Kirsch said: “The difference in improvement between patients taking placebos and patients taking anti-depressants is not very great.
“This means that depressed people can improve without chemical treatments.” Catherine, you’re skating on thin ice, really. Firstly, if something works, what’s wrong? Even your own guys like it, finally.
Secondly, when I took drugs, I believed that the drugs would help, but they ended up making me worse, and I got severe withdrawl effects to boot when I stopped. But, I didn’t believe or trust the CAM people when I first went to see them, but I thought I should at least give them the benefit of the doubt… and they made me better, and so, I only believed in CAM after I got the results. Please explain how this was placebo. If you can. But I doubt you would find that point interesting. OK, try this; babies also get great results from having CAM… AND even animals! Vets use it. Catherine, please explain. OR ANY ONE ELSE FOR THAT MATTER
Next you say:
“I have many examples of CAM compromising, rather than supporting the health of an individual. The only problem is that unlike herbal remedies, I can’t report it as there is no central way of reporting adverse incidents. And absence of reporting does not equal safety in use, however persuasive the CAM practitioner.”
If you are really interested in the health of an individual, you will give up your current practice. The western scientific system doesn’t support individuals, but scientific models, where all people are treated the same, according to their disease diagnosis (if they get that bit right in the first place). CAM treats every one as an individual, allowing for the real cause of the illness to be discovered - and healed. The dietary advice I followed from the hospital dietary experts actually made me much worse. Only the TCM model finally helped me achieve a diet that supported MY HEALING by addressing my own, UNIQUE health imbalances.
Catherine, I agree with you that “a family would be better off buying regular and larger quantities of fresh fruit and vegetables”, than them following some scientific fad or super food (gosh Catherine, you are going to be a speaker at the ‘Yakult Symposium 2008′; will you soon be recommending Yakult too?), or junk food diet, like Mc Donalds etc, when I saw that you think ” ‘A Mediterranean diet, with its balance of food groups, is very close to the perfect diet. It is the only diet which has been the subject of prolonged and serious scientific investigation.’ “. I thought… amazing! That means, because it’s the only diet that’s been scientifically studied, and fits your scientific view point, does that mean it’s the best diet for everyone? That’s what you mean, yeah?
That’s ignorant and dangerous advice. Have you ever studied TCM dietary analysis? Probably not, because it doesn’t fit into your CLEVER system, does it. Thus, YOU are dangerous, and who can I report you to? Who could I report the A&E doctor to, or the hospital doctors to? Ooops, I forgot, you guys regulate your selves, according to your own theories and scientific models, and thus, because you follow your rules, you must be right, all the time, even when you are wrong!
I’m alive today because I stopped following the western scientific view of health that I grew up with and trusted, even studied… until I discovered it didn’t actually work in reality quite as well as the scientists would have us believe. Or should I say scientists, AND multinational pharmaceutical companies, with share holders to satisfy. For every person who you believe CAM has damaged, there are thousands of people who it has helped. CAM is like any other aspect of the ‘free market’ economy – if it works, and people like it, they will recommend and use it. If it doesn’t, they won’t.
CAM is growing, and people’s satisfaction with western medicine is diminishing. Don’t get me wrong, I abhor cowboys in any field, but self regulation is the only way and it is happening. Funny, though, It doesn’t seem to bother you at all that western medicine damaged me, and routinely damages, even kills every day. WHY? Simply because it seems you care more about your precious scientific theories than actually helping people become healthy, happy and enjoying a high quality of life. Which reminds me…
LeeT, sorry, I almost forgot your very interesting point. What to do in case of a sudden fever, plus your red spots. I hope, by the way, you don’t still have it and them. This is what I’d recommend:
1st thing: relax. Stress doesn’t help, but relaxing will allow your own body to start to function at its optimum capacity (yes, basic homoeostasis exists in all cultures dude, but has different explanations for it), to combat the root cause/ imbalance that has lead to the fever (and red spots, yeah, hmm, sounds nasty)
2nd thing: LeeT, thanks, you really hit the nail on the head. As yet, there is no CAM NHS A&E provision in this country. Only a few NHS hospitals exist, like the Royal London Homeopathic Hospital, but despite the Queen being it’s patron, and it’s huge success for 150 years, there are sinister signs that people like you want to close such institutions down, not open more:
(http://www.csoh.ca/PA_Int’l_RLHH_2007.htm).
So, at present, if you were very lucky, and could afford it, AND, you knew a CAM practitioner that did TCM/ homeopathy/ healing etc, who could see you immediately, you’d go there, and get an individualised treatment to really help you heal.
Otherwise, just go to the A&E department at a hospital, get either mis-diagnosed/ sent home with some pills that might work for a while, but not really fix you properly/ catch a hospital bug … and maybe even die, even maybe because there’s a mass murderer working there. Sadly, if people like you really got your way, you might well be classified as a mass murderer one day.
As I said, I am looking forward to the day ALL NHS hospitals have CAM provision, so that the health of our nation can REALLY improve, not just provide quick fixes that lead to later complications and horrendous side effects.
Thanks
superburger // March 5, 2008 at 4:05 pm
“Otherwise, just go to the A&E department at a hospital, get either mis-diagnosed/ sent home with some pills that might work for a while, but not really fix you properly/ catch a hospital bug … and maybe even die, even maybe because there’s a mass murderer working there. Sadly, if people like you really got your way, you might well be classified as a mass murderer one day.”
But, I went to A&E when I was leaking blood at an alarming rate from a wound to my hand/arm, and was x-rayed, had the wound cleaned, sutured, tetanus-jabbed, given a dose of antibiotics in case of infection. Everyone involved , triage nurse, doctor, pharmacist and later OT seemed to me to be the very epitome of professionalism and skill.
I’m in (mostly) perfect health and have only the faintest of scars to show for my time in A&E.
So none of *your* A&E anecdote reflects *my* A&E experience. But as you should have gathered by now anecdote ain’t the same as data.
M // March 5, 2008 at 4:20 pm
I have a degree in Medieval History also. Strange to say, mine taught me that theories had to be backed by evidence (because of a dearth of evidence in the period you could get away with arguing a lot of different things, but they still had to tally with historical and archaeological evidence).
Reality Check, I have indeed encountered doctors who were awful. I would hope that the ones who gave you dangerous treatment were referred on to the GMC for disciplinary procedures; yes, this self-regulatory system is not perfect, but it exists. No such framework exists for CAM. Are you claiming that every single person who practices CAM is perfect? Never makes mistakes? No rotten apples?
I like having a ‘clever’ system. It beats a ‘thick as pigshit system’ hands down every time.
Peru // March 5, 2008 at 4:41 pm
I just came across this ridiculous debate from looking at the L4L website.
There are few people in this world who dedicate their lives to helping others, and to see them being slandered in this way is absolutely unforgivable.
It is pretty clear to me that for every 1 person who feels the CAM / energy healing approach is rubbish, there must be at least 100 people who feel it has bought about great improvements in their lives, otherwise there would never be such a fuss.
My message to those 1 in-a 100 people is this - please go and get a life and stop trying to ruin the lives of others who are trying their best to make a difference in the world
Reality Check! // March 5, 2008 at 5:11 pm
“But as you should have gathered by now anecdote ain’t the same as data.”
Hmm, I’m very glad to hear your *A&E anecdote* that you had your arm fixed. I also had some very good experiences from accidents when I was a kid, of those kinds of wounds being fixed. Some things western science does very well. Quick, superficial fixes. Anyway, LeeT was asking about a fever, not an arm wound. But, as you say, life is not just anecdotes, and believe me, I have plenty of data. And I’m living proof; living data that CAM works. Don’t forget, I went to Uni to study science, not creative writing.
As for M, did you report your awful GPs? If you read or understood what I said “Don’t get me wrong, I abhor cowboys in any field” you wouldn’t say what you said. I above all want to promote professional, responsible practitioners who are doing a great job out there, whatever they practice. I’ve met many of them so far.
Of course, every one makes mistakes, BUT WHEN ITS CAM PEOPLE, YOU GUYS WANT TO CRUCIFY THEM, ban them and say they are all bad. Not so when its a GP/ Specialist doctor… or a whole system. The GMC will always protect its own interests; you missed my point - when a clever system operates, it has to be right, even when it’s wrong, otherwise, the system will come crashing down. Just like the drugs companies, who employ senior physicians to promote their goods, and it appears have long since offered ‘incentives’ to GPs to peddle their designer drugs:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7263494.stm
” The number of prescriptions for anti-depressants hit a record high of more than 31 million in England in 2006 - even though official guidance stresses they should not be a first line treatment for mild depression.
There were 16.2m prescriptions for SSRIs alone.”
“The researchers found that the drugs did have a positive impact on people with mild depression - but the effect was no bigger than that achieved by giving patients a sugar-coated “dummy” pill.”
Alan Johnson, the Health Secretary, has announced that 3,600 therapists are to be trained during the next three years in England to increase patient access to talking therapies, which ministers see as a better alternative to drugs.”
Hooray! Some thing sensible is happening after all.
I also know some great GPs who were very supportive of my health choices, and still are. But they had open minds, which you, M, clearly, do not. If you have to resort to using abusive language, clearly it then looks like you really haven’t got anything of substance to say… shame.
Johny // March 5, 2008 at 6:09 pm
“I like having a ‘clever’ system. It beats a ‘thick as pigshit system’ hands down every time”
The greatest people in the world discovered most amazing things by ignoring the system and imaging and creating new solutions which breaks down all the known rules.
I’m working in medical wellness and every day I have chance to meet people who had extreme health problems and they try really hard to follow “the system”.
“The system” which they regularly pay every month. At least in Germany.
After months or years they got completely frustrated with the whole process and they start to search for something else. Most of them managed to find a good alternative way to sort things out.
There are millions of people who are leaving “the system” and they finding new ways for health. This trend is drastically increasing
Personally, I had health insurance for 7 years and when I slowly discovered that they have nothing to offer, I cancel it. My best move ever.
I would always encourage people to do research. If you have a problem, leave your skepticism at home and try other ways. Before you try that something new, talk with people who have results from same methods and let them “sell” you the service.
If you decide to read all the bloggers who are sitting in their comfortable sofas and “blessing” us with their book & wikipedia knowledge you will just find yourself being afraid of your own shadow.
You have to develop personal experience and do some research by talking with people who have tried different things.
It has to be an experience from a first hand. When it comes to health, don’t trust anybody who didnt try by himself.
Leave all the bloggers and journalists to entertain themselves in their perfection.
The time of clever and educated philosophers is behind us. People need reality.
“The System” makes people extremely lazy. And laziness is a foundation for all other sicknesses.
My best insurance is my correct life style. It gives me a guarantee that I will live a long and happy life.
No insurance can do that. And no money can buy it.
Biggest victims of “the system” are people who are born with heavy disease and are not able to do personal search. This kind of people just get pushed in “The Sytem” which mostly just provide maintance for existing conditions and have no solutions for solving their problems.
Is it really hard to believe that there are some solutions out there which can solve their problems.
Humans are natural beings. Being healthy is natural. Why is so difficult to believe that there are some real natural solutions to solve EVERY sickness.
Does it have to be some complicated, brainy, laboratory, chemical & scalpel solutions?
Lift up your head and check around. Internet is a wonderful tool. Use it to discover something new. You will be surprised what kind of solutions are out there. I’m not telling you to blindly believe everything out there. Follow your own sense. And ask people who tried.
The team of people at L4L is one extremely enthusiastic group and I found them as pioneers in the field of health and medicine. Maybe because of their enthusiasm it can happened they will make few mistakes on the way or to miss to explain their methods but this does not deny their great results with dozens of people.
Please talk with people who got this great results before you sit on computer and throw all your stones at “evil organization”
I personally know hundreds of people who got tremendous results just by using only “Out Of System” methods.
The methods which are sounding very unreal when you read them in some blog. But you get real natural results without any side effects.
If you wish to speak with some of them I will gladly give their contact details.
Keep on good work, L4L!
You are not alone.
superburger // March 5, 2008 at 6:20 pm
“Hmm, I’m very glad to hear your *A&E anecdote* that you had your arm fixed. I also had some very good experiences from accidents when I was a kid, of those kinds of wounds being fixed. Some things western science does very well. Quick, superficial fixes.”
You think triage is trivial? - you can spot a drunk from stroke?
You think stitching a wound so tissue is preserved and the wound heals is trivial?
you think understanding who infections arise and which antibiotic is best suited to treating the infection is trivial?
you think the work of OTs who restore use of peoples hands so they can spend time typing on blogs without pain is trivial?
‘cos I don’t.
Dr Aust // March 5, 2008 at 6:25 pm
I am not disputing that your experience has left you absolutely convinced CAM helped your IBD, Reality Check. But to science and medicine there are other explanations, e.g. spontaneous remission.
From the website of the National Association for Crohn’s and Colitis:
“The severity of the symptoms fluctuates unpredictably over time. Patients are likely to experience flare-ups in between intervals of remission or reduced symptoms”
So - cure by CAM or spontaneous remission? The answer is that we can’t tell, and that is why only proper trials give us answers.
Reality Check! // March 5, 2008 at 6:48 pm
Last time I comment on this burger! If you don’t read what I say, what can I do? If you take it all as negative criticism, what can I say?
“I also had some very good experiences from accidents when I was a kid, of those kinds of wounds being fixed. Some things western science does very well. Quick, superficial fixes.”
“Superficial”, as in superficial flesh and bone wounds, not deep sicknesses that actually emanate from the inside out… Eduardo just got his foot saved, and I’m very pleased about that, as an Arsenal fan! Football aside, “Quick fixes”, because CAM usually, but not always, takes time… time to heal the roots of the dis-ease. Sometimes western medicine can help delay slipping towards death, whilst the deeper problem is investigated by CAM later.
I hope you are feeling better now, because it sounds like maybe you are still a bit traumatised by your accident. Good luck. Keep blogging.
As for me, it’s beginning to seem that these kind of blog spots are not areas for rational discussion, but places for people to dump their negativity on any one/ thing who doesn’t fit in with being ‘normal’. Not being normal, though, is often what great people are - just look at Einstein, who was terrible at maths at school, totally wacky, came up with Quantum mechanics, that for sure the old school lot hated and thought was quackery… and now, the rest is history
Thanks
Reality Check! // March 5, 2008 at 6:55 pm
Just when I thought I could pack my lap top away… Dr Aust, are you a real doctor by the way, or a PhD? If you knew anything about the condition, and the severity of my situation, as my doctors did, then spontaneous remission was well past an option a long long time ago. That’s a fact. Sorry, I was expecting that one! That’s why I really didn’t expect CAM to work, and when it did, I was truly shocked. It was totally beyond my doctors comprehension too… which I guess is why they aren’t interested in how CAM works. It’s just too challenging for them, and you too, it seems.
Thanks
superburger // March 5, 2008 at 6:57 pm
just look at Einstein, who was terrible at maths at school, totally wacky, came up with Quantum mechanics
He didn’t. The person most responsible for wave mechanics was Erwin Schroedinger.
brainduck // March 5, 2008 at 7:00 pm
Seeing as people seem to be interested - in a couple of months I should have the same professional qualification as Patrick Holford, I work with children with similar disabilites to some of those involved with L4L, and I’ve been treated by a homeopath for a year, as well as a few other sorts of CAM.
So I’ll repeat my questions, since no-one from L4L has answered yet:
Do the ‘practitioners’ to whom you refer people tell them to stop taking conventional medicine, or not? Why (not)?
Do they, or do they not, tell people that they can be cured with ‘energy’? If so, what evidence is this based on?
I look forward to a reply - thanks.
Gaby - I organise charity street collections. If you want to check official permission, every person with a bucket will have something official from the council giving them permission, and there will be someone on the street in charge with a letter from the council, with the date & positions where they are allowed to collect. You have the legal right to ask for these from anyone collecting, and they must show you them. Collectors must not approach you directly, or shout requesting directions.
Reality Check! // March 5, 2008 at 7:35 pm
Shome mishtake. Just to prove I’m only human, he he. You are so write burger man! He did E=Mc2, relativity… and also classical problems of statistical mechanics and their application to quantum theory, etc, etc. In fact, thanks to him, we discovered that electricity is made of waves, eh, no, particles, eh, no waves, eh… oh dear. Science doesn’t actually have a clear answer, does it… as I discovered at the age of 14. It always needs an x factor, for the unknown bit…
Quantum mechs… YES, it was mainly Schroedinger, and I remember well, having to solve the Schroedinger equation at Uni, and it was so cool when I did it. I felt so clever!!! But i still got totally sick as hell, and came as close to dying a horrible death as only in the worst nightmares… you never want. For all my clever science knowledge, I had no more answers then… and only got healthy by letting go… yippeeeeee.
If I can help others avoid what I went through, that’s really cool. AND KNOW, I really need to let go of this enery draining site, bye bye :)
Catherine Collins RD // March 5, 2008 at 8:06 pm
Hello there, Nutritional Therapist - or should I just call you ‘Shazza’?
Rather sad comments but - heh - one that beautifully demonstrates your grasp on the topic. Its true, but a pity, that TV does add half a stone to your appearance in 2D, but luckily for viewers gives a relatively accurate reflection of level of intelligence.
ah, a doctor doesn’t actually have to have cancer to become qualified in treating patients with it. that remains the domain of the goji berry importers, etc etc
Professor UKdietitian // March 5, 2008 at 8:07 pm
“You ‘quack attackers’, well, IF YOU’D HAVE HAD YOUR WAY, YOU’D HAVE BANNED CAM ALONG TIME AGO… AND HAVE MY DEATH AND MILLIONS OF OTHERS USING CAM ON YOUR HANDS… ”
so there are proven benefits of conventional medicine, then……
LeeT // March 5, 2008 at 9:22 pm
Reality Check
Thank you for your diagnosis. My story is certainly true. I am grateful for your diagnosis. Fortunately, the doctor who arrived immediately realised that my condition was meningitis –meningococcal septicaemia to be precise - and not a bit of stress. That’s why he called an ambulance rather than telling me to relax. Somebody later told me later that if there had been no medical intervention things would have turned nasty rather quickly. Anyway, not sure what those horrible people did but within a few weeks I had fully recovered.
Tell me why are you folks so often in a bad mood? Secondly - and I never miss an opportunity to ask this question – how would you define CAM? What is alternative medicine exactly? No one in the alternative medicine field seems to want to tell me.
“there are sinister signs that people like you want to close such institutions down, not open more” No I take a very liberal approach and have no desire to shut down CAM. However, unproven techniques should not be granted public money.
Lee
johny // March 5, 2008 at 9:30 pm
to Profesor UKdietitan:
Your recent comment just show the absurd of trying to bring here such delicate topic with people who’s main goal is to show how clever they are or how stupid other people are. Or even to insult them like you did now.
I think I’m also leaving this purposless conversation and website alltogether. And leave you with your misery.
draust // March 5, 2008 at 9:53 pm
Why is it that CAM zealots always remind me of the more bulging-eyed fringe of religious believers?
You can debate with an opinion, but there is no debating with A Belief.
No doubt any CAM people still around will find that comment condescending in the extreme, but trying to explain to, and debate with, people whose beliefs transcend logic eventually causes reasonableness fatigue . I’m off for a beer.
LeeT // March 5, 2008 at 10:05 pm
Goodness me, I have just spent quarter of an hour reading all the comments on this thread. I feel like I have been verbally mugged about four times.
johny // March 5, 2008 at 10:12 pm
to draust:
this is not about believing or not believing. Or choosing between CAM or western medicine. Its about being a witness that there are some other solutions which are not so known as chemotherapy or brain surgery and they are extremely powerful. Its about protecting all these people who dedicated their lifes to research these unusual things from people who easily give negative comments about everything without scratching even the surface of the whole topic.
While you drinking your beer there are people who will enthusiastically work try to find out how to use this mistical power to help more people with incurable dieseases. And more time you take for your beer, more time they will have to work in peace.
superburger // March 5, 2008 at 10:56 pm
“In fact, thanks to him, we discovered that electricity is made of waves, eh, no, particles, eh, no waves, eh… oh dear. Science doesn’t actually have a clear answer, does it… as I discovered at the age of 14.”
Nope, all particles have wave properties. De Broglie wavelength. The answer is clear, the physical interpretation is just complex. There is no reason, a priori, why the waves can’t behave like particles and particles like waves. I guess that type of stuff got me interested in science, seems to turn you off.
“In fact, thanks to him, we discovered that electricity is made of waves”
Nope, not Einstein, electromagnetism was the work of Maxwell. Perhaps you were thinking of the photo-electric effect?
You should dig out some science textbooks…
draust // March 5, 2008 at 11:22 pm
Chastened as I am to discover that my beer-drinking is helping the Mystic Powers brigade, see Johny’s post, I shall just have to live with it.
Actually I think my “generic” Tesco German lager may have mystical powers. It certainly makes me feel lots better.
Perhaps I should ask for it on the NHS.
bengoldacre // March 6, 2008 at 12:07 am
this is fantastic, it is the prototypical quackery discussion thread, and must be preserved for all time in some kind of internet museum.
jonhw // March 6, 2008 at 3:01 am
Having got back to see thousands of words of comments, I think I have to agree with Ben. As an archetype of a certain type of discussion - not to mention a ‘how to’ guide for those looking for ways to deploy fallacious arguments rhetorically - there’s a definite appeal to this thread. Admittedly, the same type of appeal that there is to picking at a rather painful scab, but still…
I’m a bit surprised that these posts have generated such a vitriolic response. We are not anti-CAM, and are not attacking it: we’re entirely in favour of CAM that has been shown to work through good quality research (though we would call that ‘medicine’). We certainly wouldn’t want to ban CAM, although we are critical of certain treatment modalities and of some of the ways in which CAM is practised. We have just asked some critical questions about what Life’s 4 Living is doing - and we’re still waiting for an answer that we can take seriously.
Reality Check! // March 6, 2008 at 7:45 am
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/pressass/20080306/tuk-firms-urged-to-come-clean-on-drug-tr-6323e80.html
Seroxat is the most frequently-prescribed anti-depressant in the UK, but there have been complaints that it triggers suicidal feelings in some patients.
The Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency launched an investigation into the drug’s manufacturer GlaxoSmithKline in May 2003 over allegations that it knew of the drug’s dangers for several years but failed to pass the information on.
Clinical trial data that showed Seroxat was not effective in treating under 18s and had in some cases triggered a higher risk of suicidal behaviour.**********************************
It would be far better if people spent more time with their heads out of the science books, and in the real world (this includes you Ben), where the biggest problems in healthcare are these drugs companies desperately trying to make as much money/ rip people off - often with extremely dangerous consequences, than conduct witch-hunts against a few decent people trying to really help the sick and underprivileged in our society become healthy in mind, body and spirit.
Any idiot can figure out that CAM, in whatever form, will never fit into a Western scientific framework, because it’s not based on Western science…
You guys are doing the equivalent of saying the Chinese language should obey English language rules, but because it doesn’t, it’s not a real language, is not valid, and should be scrapped. If you bothered to learn it, you would find out that it’s an amazingly rich and beautiful language, that still works perfectly for the many people who use it.
Anyway, time and real people voting with their feet and common sense, will prove that people are more interested in becoming really healthy than a load of book science. Keep the science for machine , etc, development, not for attacking CAM/ people!
gimpy // March 6, 2008 at 7:57 am
I’m increasingly disturbed by some of the comments here, what Holfordwatch have done is to draw attention to an organisation that employs some dubious individuals applying dubious concepts to seriously and sometimes terminally ill vulnerable children. In response they have been heckled and harrassed by this organisation, its supporters and employees while none of their concerns have been answered.
This is madness. This isn’t a game of rhetorical point scoring, this is about the welfare of very vulnerable individuals. For crying out loud Life’s 4 Living, can’t you see the seriousness of the questions asked?
Nutritional therapist // March 6, 2008 at 9:38 am
I think it is more general bullshit and attitude of holfordwatch Gimpy
Nutritional therapist // March 6, 2008 at 9:51 am
Catherine
I would say that a person who is discussing nutrition and health in a such know it all manner, really should demonstrate that they are practicing what they are saying. You clearly are not!
Please do not underestimate my grasp on the topic. I practiced as a doctor for 15 years so probably understand medicine slightly better than your self.
Clare
When people such collins continualy discredit my profession putting a slur on my work and my collegues then i will be as abusive and truthful as i like thank you.
Claire // March 6, 2008 at 10:48 am
The idea that Einstein was ‘terrible at maths’ at school is a myth - http://physics.about.com/b/2007/09/19/physics-myth-month-einstein-failed-mathematics.htm
He appears to have been very critical of his own mathematical abilities, employing others to check his work, but that is not at all the same thing as being ‘terrible at maths’ in the popular understanding of the term, i.e. can’t do it
superburger // March 6, 2008 at 11:31 am
reality check!
there’s a wide and varied debate regarding all sorts of drugs and their effects. As pointed out somewhere else, some of the most cited papers in the BMJ last year where criticisms of individual drugs, or the actions of drug companies.
The moment people hold CAM up to a fraction of the scrutiny mainstream medicine holds itself up to the reaction is, well, what you see on this blog.
If the methods of L4L, or Holford, or anyone else are as effective as claimed, then they should stand up to the strictest of scrutiny.
Reality Check! // March 6, 2008 at 12:16 pm
Thanks Ben, that’s a ’slightly’ more balanced view of the real world…
http://www.badscience.net/?p=619
manigen // March 6, 2008 at 1:39 pm
Nutritional therapist,
“When people such collins continualy discredit my profession putting a slur on my work and my collegues then i will be as abusive and truthful as i like thank you.”
And I suppose we can’t stop you. But you have to accept that the moment you stoop to name calling about someone’s weight you will instantly be dismissed as an immature, insecure fool without the wit or self-respect to maintain a proper conversation. That is what has happened here.
jdc325 // March 6, 2008 at 1:42 pm
“Any idiot can figure out that CAM, in whatever form, will never fit into a Western scientific framework, because it’s not based on Western science…”
Oh, sorry - is there another alternative type of science then? Or perhaps science changes according to which way the compass needle is pointing?
Your “Chinese language” analogy is a poor one. We can (on the whole) successfully translate from, say, Mandarin to English and vice versa - but you stated that CAM could “never fit into a western scientific framework”. You seem to be equating complete incommensurability with partial translation.
LeeT // March 6, 2008 at 1:48 pm
“people trying to really help the sick and underprivileged in our society become healthy in mind, body and spirit. ”
The sick and underprivileged generally can’t afford CAM therapies.
“Any idiot can figure out that CAM, in whatever form, will never fit into a Western scientific framework, because it’s not based on Western science… ”
What exactly is it based on then? What is this thing called “Western science”?
Life's 4 Living Trust Ltd // March 6, 2008 at 1:51 pm
Holfordwatch – The Edge of Reason
A Second Response
In my previous posting I dealt in the main with two matters. First I voiced some concerns about the methods Holfordwatch employs, particularly its use of anonymity, and second its possible connection to The Guardian columnist, Ben Goldacre. Then I went on to examine the more substantive issues of Holfordwatch’s attack on Stephen Russell, the Barefoot Doctor and the charity Life’s 4 Living in a document posted on February 21st 2008. Overnight, Ben Goldacre disassociated himself from Holfordwatch and of course I accept his denial of any connection with the site or input into the articles of February 21st, 22nd and 25th. I’m pleased we managed to clear that one up at least. Furthermore, a long response to my article was posted from Jonhw of Holfordwatch and I welcome his further participation in the debate. His arguments will be dealt with at a later date since this piece is essentially answering the posting of February 22nd, entitled, ‘Life’s 4 Living, The Energy Clinic, Claire Sutton and Sarah McCrum’.
The main allegations in the February 22nd document are:
1) that Life’ 4 Living is staffed by people who believe in the healing power of energy and the charity works with people Holfordwatch doesn’t like, especially Stephen Russell;
2) that BBC2 broadcast an unfavourable documentary on the Energy Bank;
3) that Sarah McCrum (a trustee of Life’s 4 Living) has made unsubstantiated claims about the efficacy of energy healing;
4) that a television station broadcast a critical programme about Aiping Wang and the Phenomena Academy in New Zealand where two patients had died;
5) that Claire Sutton (a director of Life’s 4 Living) espouses eccentric beliefs;
6) that Life’s 4 Living has corporate sponsors;
7) that some people associated with the Energy Clinic and the Phenomena Academy are now part of Life’s 4 Living.
There are also some references to CRB checks although there is nowhere any suggestion that any of those named in the article or other staffers at Life’s 4 Living have criminal records.
1. The Healing Powers of Energy and Stephen Russell
It is true that many of those at Life’s 4 Living believe in the healing powers of energy. They are not alone in this. Many societies - over time and throughout the world - incorporate similar ideas and in our own culture there is a substantial number of people who would argue that there is more to the issue of healing and happiness than meets the eye. Those of you who believe that only the western approach to medicine can be countenanced will not, I am sure, be swayed by any of this. However, if you have even a scintilla of doubt over the proposition that western medicine possesses all the answers, then maybe you will be prepared to read on with an open mind.
It is interesting to note that nowhere in the document of February 22nd is any evidence put forward to prove that alternative ideas cannot work. Rather, it is a given. An accepted fact. The approach seems to be, if it’s not conventional, it must, by definition, be wrong. Ergo, if you believe that alternative methods can, as the document says, “treat and mitigate” diseases then you must also be wrong. This is hardly a scientific approach. Of course, the argument I am making does not prove that any particular form of alternative treatment works, that can only be determined by research and analysis. What I can say (and I do realise this is anecdotal) is that I suffered a serious condition for which conventional medicine has no answer or cure. At the time I was as sceptical as those who write Holfordwatch’s material. Yet after a week’s Chinese treatment, which I turned to in sheer desperation, my symptom’s had not only disappeared and have not returned, but also I felt better than I had for years.
Those at Life’s 4 Living do not profess to cure anyone. What they do declare is the belief that there can be beneficial effects on health when energy healing is used.
On the subject of the Barefoot Doctor, some may believe that Life’s 4 Living was in error in accepting help from Stephen Russell. But if this is so - and I don’t believe it is - it was a genuine decision, made in good faith. To the best of my knowledge, Stephen Russell has done only good things for the charity and does not deserve to be pilloried by anonymous hucksters. And the fact remains as I stated in my previous posting, Stephen Russell has never had contact with any vulnerable people funded by Life’s 4 Living.
2. The BBC Documentary
Not all treatments or supposed cures work, no matter what tradition the practitioner or doctor comes from (and this includes western medicine). But when an alternative or complementary treatment fails in a particular case, sceptics use it in a way they never dream of when conventional medicine fails. It is used as a stick to damn everything to do with the genre. In other words, they use one anecdote (or at best a very small number, insufficient for research purposes) to make sweeping condemnations and negative judgments, without acknowledging what they are doing as I have in the abovementioned account of my own experience. Even worse, they go on to call into question the good faith of the practitioner, indeed all practitioners. This is exactly what happened in the BBC2 documentary called ‘Kill or Cure’ which Holfordwatch cites at length in its February 22nd posting.
The documentary featured the work of the Energy Bank (now known as the Energy Clinic) with Warwick Powell, who suffered from Aids. Certain of Life’s 4 Living personnel helped establish the Energy Clinic, which is a leading centre for Chinese treatments in London. However, no-one at Life’s 4 Living is employed, formally or informally, by the clinic. Neither is anyone at Life’s 4 Living a director of the clinic, nor does anyone hold any office at the Energy Clinic whatsoever. The charity does employ its services from time to time, as it would any other service provider. The Energy Clinic charges for its services like any other business. Life’s 4 Living does not charge anything, except in a very small number of cases for specific reasons. What Life’s 4 Living does is raise money in order to fund treatment for individuals. The individuals themselves pay nothing.
Whatever one thinks about the quality of the treatment Powell received, he undertook it by his own free choice. Whatever he paid was again his own decision. In fact I am told that he ended up paying far less than the breathless amounts suggested in the programme. Most of the world’s conventional medicine operations charge money. Try being ill in the USA! You either pay through the nose if you’ve got no insurance or if you have, and here’s the greatest scam, you pay every month whether you are sick or not. There are only a few countries which provide universal health care free at the point of delivery. If you don’t have either insurance or money you are likely to be offered a seriously sub-standard service. And it doesn’t matter whether you are cured or not, you still pay.
For instance, a good friend of mine was diagnosed with a sinus complaint which a private surgeon charged him over £5000 to cure. The operation, though, turned out to be a disaster and wreaked further havoc with his sinuses. When other doctors saw the results they were horrified. But not horrified enough to testify against their errant colleague. My friend was still relieved of a large amount of money and his health is compromised to this day.
So the best we can say about the programme (and it is suggested by the show’s title) is that it leaves open the question of whether Powell was unduly influenced to undergo the treatment or if he did everything totally of his own accord with his eyes wide open. Was he killed or was he cured, the title asks. Well, neither actually. Powell currently runs a spa in New Zealand and seems to be doing rather well.
3. Sarah McCrum
I now turn to the subject of Sarah McCrum, who is a trustee of Life’s 4 Living and was instrumental in establishing the Energy Clinic. Uncritically quoting Thomas Sutcliffe (who reviewed Kill or Cure), the document of February 22nd variously describes Ms. McCrum as brainwashed, wicked or a fool. Might there not be another possibility, no matter how much the sceptics might try to avoid it? Could not Ms. McCrum sincerely believe what she says without being brainwashed, without the motive of making money and without being feeble-minded. Even if you don’t believe it, you surely must accept that she might well believe it. You certainly can’t rule the possibility out as Sutcliffe does and Holfordwatch accepts without question.
It is also true that Chinese medicine as practiced by the Energy Clinic does encourage patients to take a proactive role in their treatment, physically, mentally and emotionally. Why should this be so outrageous? Is western medicine’s stance that patients are nothing more than ignorant and passive vessels the last word on the subject? I don’t think so. And if Sarah McCrum believes this, shouldn’t she say so? Shouldn’t she be honest rather than hide her true beliefs? This is a far cry from saying, as the document quotes, that the Clinic’s staff tell patients, “it’s all your fault.”
I am perfectly prepared to concede that the case study mentioned in the document is not the best I have ever seen. Nonetheless, it is not alone in that. Read Sigmund Freud. And he founded a whole discipline which didn’t exist before him and which took some believing by those in the conventional medicine of the time. He was accused in the early days of holding out false cures. Funnily enough, as conventional medicine embraced Freud, his methodology was called into question. If his records were not so tightly controlled by the Institute that bears his name, he might well have acquired an even more tarnished reputation.
Even Holfordwatch accepts that Sarah McCrum did not say that Master Ding cured a patient of stomach cancer. What she does maintain, however, is that energy healing is beneficial over a wide number of conditions. Of those who have undergone the treatments, there are far more who will give testament to its positive outcomes than you would think by reading Holfordwatch. I would say the satisfaction rating is far higher than in conventional medicine.
4. The 20/20 Programme and the Deaths in New Zealand
It is a tragedy when anyone dies. For me, having agreed to compile a response to the references made in the February 22nd document to the television programme 20/20, this was the most important and sensitive issue to address and attempt to resolve. I have therefore conducted my own review of the events. The first thing I did was watch the television show. I then questioned a number of people who were witnesses to the events to get my own take on the situation.
The February 22nd posting states that the programme, among other matters, “discusses the fate of two students who attended the Academy to learn to be healthy. The students rejected conventional medical treatment, one for breast cancer, the other for melanoma. Both students died.”
This sounds as if vulnerable young people were exploited until they died. In fact, the two ‘students’ were long time believers in the power of energy healing. One was in her sixties, the other was 37. The woman who died of breast cancer - Sharon - had been travelling around the world from New Zealand to London, then to Switzerland and finally to Australia, where she died. So, although she was a believer in the power of energy, she was not a student at the Academy when she died. She made an adamant choice to reject conventional treatment until the end and actually died in a hospital. This case is extremely sad, and I doubt whether many of us would be prepared to eschew conventional medicine to that extent. But no-one can say she would not have died if she had been treated anywhere else or if she had chosen a conventional approach, which could have involved a mastectomy. Certainly no blame ever attached to the Academy, apart from an admonition from Sharon’s bereaved daughter, whose desire to find someone to blame for her mother’s death is understandable, That, however does not make her view correct.
Here’s another anecdote. I had a girlfriend (the love of my life) who was diagnosed with breast cancer when she was 30. She held no brief for alternative cures and was treated with the best that the US medical system had to offer, at great expense. Numerous doctors told her that she would be cured. She died two years later. Nobody seems to want to investigate these shocking occurrences.
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The other student was Janez, who was also a believer in the healing power of energy. Janez similarly decided to forego conventional medicine when he developed melanoma, despite the fact that Aiping Wang, the Grandmaster, suggested he go to hospital. As his condition deteriorated, the Academy deputed a team of 15 people to look after his every need.
When Janez died, it was deemed a sudden death and the New Zealand police were obliged to investigate. Having examined all the evidence there was no suggestion of any charges. As the investigating officer put it: “There was no criminality….Janez was an adult and made his own decisions.”
The two cases are infinitely sad but deaths occur everywhere and at all times. These deaths have been the subject of thorough investigations by television programmes and the police, both of whom have considerable resources, yet no fault was found with the Academy.
The document of 22nd February goes on to list claims made in the programme by four disaffected students. It turned out that two of them were husband and wife. Again, they were not vulnerable young people but adults, all seemingly with strong minds. Remember, this is four from over 200 who spent time studying at the Academy, or 2% of its intake. It seems that the other 98% were more than satisfied. I would suggest that is a far higher percentage than for most comparable organisations.
In addition, the charge that “fanciful claims” were made by Ms. Wang to the effect that she could cure a variety of diseases, teach people to fly and see the future is a twisted version of the truth. Ms. Wang always provides a caveat in her on-screen discussions of what is possible. Anyone is entitled to believe that these things might all be possible using her methods but she says it can occur only if the participant is able to attain a state of the deepest relaxation. And she doesn’t claim to cure either. What she actually said was: “If the person can do it (relax) very well….then any disease can get balance by the life energy.”
Even the presenter of the show, Phil Vine, observes at one point: “Has she (Ms. Wang) done anything wrong, though? These people are consenting adults, they decided that that’s the path that they want to follow, they’re prepared to pay for it….” In response, one of the disaffected ‘students’ replied: “She’s not teaching anything bad….I just feel that it’s not right. I walked away.” Another of the four, who had gone to the Academy with food allergies and a fear of cancer, admitted that the food allergies had been alleviated while she was in New Zealand and had not returned.
The programme did not discuss “whether the teaching of the Academy was dangerous.” There were some vague references to this subject, but they were put more in a kind of devil’s advocate way rather than a true discussion, which would examine the pros and cons. The issues of so-called brainwashing and whether or not the Academy was part of a cult were dealt with very quickly. One person said the term “brainwashing” had been used, which was denied by the Academy. No-one bothered to put forward the classic tests for deciding whether a particular organisation or movement is a cult and check to see if Aiping Wang fitted the test or not. Given that, it was most irresponsible for the programme to raise the point at all.
As for the fees, some of them may appear excessive but the people concerned were happy to pay for something that clearly benefitted their lives. In fact, the vast majority of attendees at the Academy paid nothing. Moreover, no-one, from Ms. Wang down, attempted to avoid answering questions on this (or any other) subject. Nothing was presented which could be described as a “con”.
The adjudication was not as clear-cut as the February 22nd document makes out. It poses questions but gives no definitive answers. Throughout, the Academy personnel were extremely cooperative with the film makers, who were allowed to film where they liked and no questions were off-limits. Sarah McCrum, one of the victims of Holfordwatch’s demonising tendencies, was quite happy to talk about all aspects of the Academy’s work and she didn’t look at all uncomfortable at any stage.
So 20/20 is not quite the damning judgment that Holfordwatch would have us believe. The Phenomena Academy was not proved responsible for the deaths, which I would like to reiterate are still tragic and to be much regretted. The adjudication is simply not what Holfordwatch cracks it up to be.
5. Claire Sutton
The February 22nd document accuses Claire Sutton of an eccentricity of belief, saying she “espouses the belief that healing energy can be transmitted down a phone line and provide relief from a sore throat.” Holfordwatch, attempting to quote from ‘What’s the Bleep’ but getting it wrong, has Ms Sutton saying: “We spoke to people afterwards (an energy session conducted by phone) and they (the participants) said they felt absolutely fantastic. Someone with a sore throat said it immediately disappeared.”
Claire Sutton has said no such thing.
6. Corporate Sponsors
Holfordwatch seems to imply that having corporate sponsors enables Life’s 4 Living to gain the trust of future participants when that trust is undeserved. In fact, Life’s 4 Living is merely being transparent, allowing all information about itself to be out there and for people to make up their own minds. If Holfordwatch’s anonymous contributors were half as open to scrutiny as Life’s 4 Living, we could see whether their ravings actually have any credibility. Or perhaps if they were to take on the real bad guys, the multi-national pharmaceutical industry, with the same missionary zeal that they bring to anything alternative, we might even forgive them their frightened secrecy. Today, for instance, I note that The Guardian is reporting the allegation that one of the major drug companies in world, GlaxoSmithKline, failed for some time to report the fact that one its most successful drugs, the anti-depressant, Seroxat, “increased the likelihood of suicide among teenagers.” It’s a shame that Holfordwatch, instead of going these monstersm, would rather employ the schoolboyishly brash Quackometer, with its shades of Hughie (and I mean that most sincerely, folks) Green.
The fact is, many corporations whose workers have benefitted from Chinese treatments are now extremely interested in following up the exercise with more. City corporations are not known for continuing to use something for which they receive no benefit, something which doesn’t work.
7. Connections
Holfordwatch indulges in that old canard – guilt by association. So on Planet Holfordwatch anyone at Life’s 4 Living who has any connection to the Energy Clinic, or Takaro Lodge in New Zealand is automatically suspect. Let’s be absolutely clear again. Some of the people who attended the New Zealand Academy and helped in the formation of the Energy Clinic are now central to the operation of Life’s 4 Living. But if Holfordwatch really believes the New Zealand Academy and the Energy Clinic are so bad, how can it criticise those who are no longer connected to these two institutions but have set up a bona fide charity which seeks to help sick people for no charge?
All in all, the claims made in the February 22nd posting are loud, confident - and wrong. Some, like the quote attributed to Claire Sutton, are manifestly and totally wrong. Others, like the claim that Aiping Wang’s comments amount to a statement that her methods can cure any disease are wildly exaggerated.
I’m sure none of this will satisfy the zealots of the health-police at Holfordwatch. They responded to my previous posting by shooting the messenger – me. I wonder whether they can bring themselves to look a little more rationally at this posting. I’m not holding my breath but it would be nice.
Lynton Guest: March 2008
jdc325 // March 6, 2008 at 2:07 pm
You might feel this is a small point, Lynton, but: “anonymous hucksters”?
‘Huckster’ means vendor, trafficker or advertiser and tends to be used pejoratively. Use of such language can only be: a deliberate attempt to smear; ignorance; or Humpty-Dumptyism.
pv // March 6, 2008 at 2:49 pm
It’s funny how all the quack evangelists write loser length the posts, and still not manage to answer anything.
And btw quack people and L4L apologists, not only did Einstein not discover or invent QED, he didn’t believe it was true either. He wasn’t at ease with the idea of probability.
You see, you are not only scientifically illiterate but historically ignorant. A world view based on wishful thinking is useful only for defrauding and taking advantage of the gullible and desperate.
gimpy // March 6, 2008 at 2:49 pm
Lynton, one small question which you have neglected to answer. Do feel that it is appropriate for somebody who has been accused of sexually predatory behaviour and admits sexual relations with ex-patients is a suitable person to work with vulnerable children?
If I may quote from the OP it seems that Russell does work with children according to your own organisation.
HolfordWatchWatch // March 6, 2008 at 2:58 pm
I am pretty disgusted generally by anyone who has got nothing better to do that attempt to jeopardize the work of others, let alone those like the naughty boys and girls of HolfordWatch who have taken it up as their career!! - what a waste of life! – I understand why you don’t want to be named
Go and get a proper job you naughty people – maybe we should get some private detectives on the case and see what is really going on with you… perhaps I will create the HolfordWatchWatch! – see how you like a taste of your own medicine
JQH // March 6, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Oh dear, threats to stalk your opponents now, “HolfordWatchWatch”?
I suppose we should not expect anything better from someone who is prepared to defend someone who has sex with former patients.
luckyu // March 6, 2008 at 3:50 pm
Hi everybody
It’s realy does it matter who is the anonymous person???? She or he anyway is old message…
You all talk abaut something what you dont know what’s going on, but like to know but not ready to listen like you are all tone deaf… Think abaut that would you like to aggressive to judge or you would like to know the thruth and make it from that benefit for everyone.
eeeeeexcellent
It’s this realy answer?????