We were delighted to see Life’s 4 Living posting a response (written by Lynton Guest, AKC) to our serious concerns about their practises. However, we were disappointed to see that they resorted to (long, boring) ad hominem attacks on us bloggers, instead of address our substantive points. To be blunt, we might well be malevolent and sinister – my mum would be so proud – but what is important is whether or not our criticisms are right and whether or not Life’s 4 Living are dealing appropriately with their (potentially vulnerable) clients. Unfortunately, Lynton fails to address this. Read his comment in full here, and our response (quoting extensively from Lynton, and based on a blog comment) below.
Holfordwatch: A Combination of the Sinister and the Secretive
Thank you for our new strapline – eeeeeeeeeexcellent.
every allegation made against the charity in these postings is demonstrably wrong.
We’ll look forward to a refutation of these points in your future posts, but you certainly haven’t demonstrated this here. If you feel that everything we’re saying it wrong – it isn’t – then it’s a shame you concentrated on boring ad hominem arguments instead of more substantive points.
This site is one of the strangest I have ever seen.
You haven’t seen much of the Internet, then, I’m guessing.
It is therefore a good idea to take some time to examine the secrecy of Holfordwatch more closely. On the web-site, in the section entitled, ‘About Us’, it states: “We’re not oversharing on biographical details….because we find it distracts from a critique of the science and ideas.” This is bizarre. Exactly how putting a name to Holfordwatch’s malicious gossip would be distracting is not explained. Indeed, in over twenty years of being in journalism and around reporters I have never heard this argument made before. Following the logic of Holforwatch’s reasoning, academic journals would refuse to include the names of the authors of learned papers in case they ‘distracted’ from any ‘critique’ of the science. This is nonsense, designed, as far as I can see, to provide a flimsy cover for a lack of transparency.
We’re neither professionals nor journalists – we don’t get paid for doing this, and would rather avoid tedious ad hominem arguments about our personalities. Anonymous blogging isn’t exactly anything new, and readers are free to either engage with our ideas, or not. By the way, it’s still common practice for journals to anonymise papers prior to peer review.
It all makes you wonder what exactly Holfordwatch is afraid of.
Well, it goes with the territory, but we do get the occasional outbreak of cyberstalking and threat of violence and/or death. Nothing we take that seriously – but we don’t think our identities are particularly relevant, and this is another disincentive to giving them out.
the whole enterprise smacks of disproportionate prejudice on a monumental scale.
For example? – where do we say something that’s inaccurate. I find this especially daft coming from a supporter of a charity which claims that all Chinese people – the whole billion of them? – rely on traditional Chinese medicine?
Holfordwatch is in some way connected to Ben Goldacre
We like Ben’s work, if that’s what you mean. He doesn’t write, edit, run or own this blog. As for using the term ‘bad science’ – it’s not exactly patented (or original to Ben) and I’m sure Ben would not object to its use. By the way, is ‘Life’s 4 Living’ an original name?
Holfordwatch feels free to assert, without any supporting evidence, that Russell’s explanation for them is “less than exculpatory.”…Is Holfordwatch saying that helping to raise funds for a good cause is wrong?
Russell himself admits having sex with former patients. This is certainly a ‘less than exculpatory’ response to the allegations that were made – frankly, I think we were rather polite here.
The Barefoot Doctor is not and never has been in contact with any of those people whom Life’s 4 Living Trust helps in its charitable works, be they vulnerable or otherwise…the author completely misunderstands the involvement of Stephen Russell, whose role is clearly restricted to accompanying (i.e. helping with) the making of a film of the trip. It was never envisaged that Russell would be directly involved with the patients. And the proof of this is that Russell never met any of the individuals concerned. Had Holfordwatch followed normal journalistic practice and asked the charity to explain its position, it would have been made aware of the true situation. Instead it failed to seek any answers and simply went ahead and assumed its own view. Or at least we think that’s what it did.
We trusted one of Life’s 4 Living’s own PDFs on this. Russell is quoted as saying that “for the best part of a year now I’ve been working with Life’s 4 Living. We are doing some fantastic work with children suffering from life limiting or life threatening conditions, many of whom have little or no medication available to treat them” (p. 2). The same document states that “Accompanied by the Barefoot Doctor (AKA Stephen Russell), the film follows a group of ten children and young adults, aged between 5-21 years old, who suffer from severe illness or disability that is beyond current medical assistance, on a journey of healing and discovery. This journey will take them all the way to China” (p. 3).
If Life’s 4 Living does not want journalists and/or bloggers to presume that the discussion of their activities on their own website is accurate, perhaps they should add a disclaimer to this effect? If Life’s 4 Living did not mean to say that Barefoot Doctor was working with their clients, they should look to revise this document.
Holfordwatch then turns its guns on a director of the charity, Claire Sutton. The most it can say about her is that she expressed a desire to help sick children who might benefit from a fully-paid-for trip to China to see if they could experience any improvement in their conditions through undergoing traditional Chinese treatments.
We do say rather more about Sutton. For example we point out that she espouses the novel belief that healing energy can be transmitted down a phone line. We were kind enough not to mention that she has been spamming a message board for people with MS in order to promote Life’s 4 Living. Which seems rather odd, given that a Life’s 4 Living supporter is now lecturing us about Internet etiquette.
Oh well, maybe this is alternative etiquette.
One such allegation is that “people” went to a training school and “died of cancer”. Perhaps Holfordwatch would be better employed investigating the huge numbers of “people” who have died of cancer at the hands of conventional medicine but this, of course, would not fit in with the author’s prejudices. This matter will be fully examined in subsequent postings.
We do do things other than this blog – and have analysed other issues elsewhere. However, the important question – completely dodged by Lynton here – is whether or not people died of cancer at the training school we referred to. Even if ‘conventional’ medicine were evil, this does not excuse nasty things done in the name of ‘alternative’ medicine.
To be honest – Lynton – I’m annoyed. I’ve waded through a near-enough 2000 word rant from you, and found remarkably few substantive issues to engage with. We do make a number of significant criticisms of Life’s 4 Living – perhaps, in your next response, you might like to address some of them, instead of obsessing about who we are or are not?
I found your site through researching the Life’s4living outfit. My concerns about them were raised because they are forever rattling buckets for money outside our local stores in Islington. I understood, from the Charity Commissioners, that street collections are allowed on the basis of one per year per charity, yet Life’s4Living are at it all the time. I thought it was some sort of scam but apparently it is a registered charity. But I am sure they are breaking the law by always collecting.
It must be obvious by now, Nutrtional Therapist, that the criticisms do not arise purely from the fact that Mr Holford appears on TV programmes. It is the accuracy of the information given and claims made during those appearances which is at issue. Were he to make statements based on robust evidence, there would be no problem, surely? And please, leave out the nasty digs about appearance. They have no place in adult, reasoned debate.
Its sad to see how Holford Watch is following same modern journalism (or blogging) path with publishing stories without making proper investigation and asking right question and right people.
Making judgment just by reading the L4L website and not trying to see whether there is some truth in the whole thing is truly irresponsible. I wonder do they know how much damage they made to this highly successful healing method which produced many fantastic health results. Not just with MS people but with many other incurable health disorders.
Just by having freedom of speech and modern communication methods does not mean that you can attack everything around you without taking any moral consequences.
I suggest that people from Holford Watch give a call to L4L and ask phone numbers of 5-10 people who can directly give testimonials about their results. They will be very glad to do that because they are very clear how they get their results.
This is real. Everything else is just philosophy.
And if you still care to be a voice of the truth you would publish these testimonials on your websites.
But Im afraid that HW does not care about truth.
Being negative attracts more readers. Who want to read positive news.
Sad but true.
But luckily organizations like L4L will continue to bring light on this planet.
And it will get stronger.
“Its sad to see how Holford Watch is following same modern journalism (or blogging) path with publishing stories without making proper investigation and asking right question and right people.”
I didn’t think *anyone* could criticise HW for the depth of investigation, and their willingness to engage with anyone as they raise some very interesting questions about Holford, and some of the other people and organisations in the world of nutrition and CAM.
Of course, some of the people HW choose to engage with seem unable to respond and instead resort to tedious insults.
Dr Aust, Johnw, pv, Wulfstan etc, no response from you? Is that because you don’t have any
real answers, or you just like being negative, or because you can only attack from the safety of your science books, which I know so well, but you don’t know how to respond to the reality of life? If you start trying to have a serious discussion, at least you should continue. Clearly some of you don’t like reality! But I do…
Oh, sorry and thanks jdc325… you like hoaxes, huh? Sorry, I’m for real*, so better you don’t play poker; you’ll probably lose a lot of money. And thanks LeeT … but I don’t think you really have had ANY similar experiences to mine. But your ‘story’ sounds very imaginative. Were you perhaps studying creative writing at Uni?
OK, more details are clearly needed (*by the way, I have copies of all the original doctors/ hospital records, and am still being monitored by hospitals, to this day). In 1985 I was diagnosed with Ulcerative Colitis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulcerative_colitis), after having a biopsy. They told me I could die from this, but there was no actual cure and no explanation for it either. Later, when I went to the A&E department, I had been suffering from constant diareah and bleeding for many, many months, and the fever, although severe, was just another symptom I had to deal with. I told the A&E doctor all this and he examined me, and said “you haven’t got Ulcerative Colitis, just go home, and use cold water compresses on your forehead to keep the fever down”. I asked him, what area of medicine was he specialised in, he said “Cardiology”. I left, thinking this country’s medicine provision is in real trouble… and so am I.
When I was finally admitted into hospital, and they did another diagnosis; of course, it confirmed that I had severe Ulcerative Colitis (basically the last stage, fulminant disease. They say unless treated, fulminant disease leads to death). This didn’t stop them giving me drugs that were contra-indicated for ulceration, but hey, they were just experts in gastroenterology, doing the best they could, according to what the scientific knowledge base was telling them to do, which it seems doesn’t in actuality include trying to heal someone.
Which leads me nicely to Catherine Collins, (RD!), apparently a top, expert Dietician, according to the western, scientific approach…
“And Reality Check, your post is interesting”
“Interesting”… I’ve heard that before, from the hospital doctor who used to be my Outpatient clinician years ago. He once told me, “You have the equivalent of severe 3rd degree burns inside your large intestine, and there’s no way you can be cured. His answer was that the only ‘choice’ I had was to just get my Colon removed. I thought he’d be interested in how I had made a good recovery, by using CAM. At first he didn’t recognise me, because I was looking healthy. But then when he did, he was shocked that I could have got so much better. But was he interested in exploring the CAM I had used? No. He didn’t have time, not any real interest, but said it was interesting, and wished me good luck.
Catherine, you continue:
“However, viewing from the ‘conventional’ clinical angle, CAM has little to recommend its practice other than the placebo effect.”
Firstly, do you follow the news, my dear? Did you see what another expert recently said:
“Lead researcher Professor Irving Kirsch said: “The difference in improvement between patients taking placebos and patients taking anti-depressants is not very great.
“This means that depressed people can improve without chemical treatments.” Catherine, you’re skating on thin ice, really. Firstly, if something works, what’s wrong? Even your own guys like it, finally.
Secondly, when I took drugs, I believed that the drugs would help, but they ended up making me worse, and I got severe withdrawl effects to boot when I stopped. But, I didn’t believe or trust the CAM people when I first went to see them, but I thought I should at least give them the benefit of the doubt… and they made me better, and so, I only believed in CAM after I got the results. Please explain how this was placebo. If you can. But I doubt you would find that point interesting. OK, try this; babies also get great results from having CAM… AND even animals! Vets use it. Catherine, please explain. OR ANY ONE ELSE FOR THAT MATTER
Next you say:
“I have many examples of CAM compromising, rather than supporting the health of an individual. The only problem is that unlike herbal remedies, I can’t report it as there is no central way of reporting adverse incidents. And absence of reporting does not equal safety in use, however persuasive the CAM practitioner.”
If you are really interested in the health of an individual, you will give up your current practice. The western scientific system doesn’t support individuals, but scientific models, where all people are treated the same, according to their disease diagnosis (if they get that bit right in the first place). CAM treats every one as an individual, allowing for the real cause of the illness to be discovered – and healed. The dietary advice I followed from the hospital dietary experts actually made me much worse. Only the TCM model finally helped me achieve a diet that supported MY HEALING by addressing my own, UNIQUE health imbalances.
Catherine, I agree with you that “a family would be better off buying regular and larger quantities of fresh fruit and vegetables”, than them following some scientific fad or super food (gosh Catherine, you are going to be a speaker at the ‘Yakult Symposium 2008′; will you soon be recommending Yakult too?), or junk food diet, like Mc Donalds etc, when I saw that you think ” ‘A Mediterranean diet, with its balance of food groups, is very close to the perfect diet. It is the only diet which has been the subject of prolonged and serious scientific investigation.’ “. I thought… amazing! That means, because it’s the only diet that’s been scientifically studied, and fits your scientific view point, does that mean it’s the best diet for everyone? That’s what you mean, yeah?
That’s ignorant and dangerous advice. Have you ever studied TCM dietary analysis? Probably not, because it doesn’t fit into your CLEVER system, does it. Thus, YOU are dangerous, and who can I report you to? Who could I report the A&E doctor to, or the hospital doctors to? Ooops, I forgot, you guys regulate your selves, according to your own theories and scientific models, and thus, because you follow your rules, you must be right, all the time, even when you are wrong!
I’m alive today because I stopped following the western scientific view of health that I grew up with and trusted, even studied… until I discovered it didn’t actually work in reality quite as well as the scientists would have us believe. Or should I say scientists, AND multinational pharmaceutical companies, with share holders to satisfy. For every person who you believe CAM has damaged, there are thousands of people who it has helped. CAM is like any other aspect of the ‘free market’ economy – if it works, and people like it, they will recommend and use it. If it doesn’t, they won’t.
CAM is growing, and people’s satisfaction with western medicine is diminishing. Don’t get me wrong, I abhor cowboys in any field, but self regulation is the only way and it is happening. Funny, though, It doesn’t seem to bother you at all that western medicine damaged me, and routinely damages, even kills every day. WHY? Simply because it seems you care more about your precious scientific theories than actually helping people become healthy, happy and enjoying a high quality of life. Which reminds me…
LeeT, sorry, I almost forgot your very interesting point. What to do in case of a sudden fever, plus your red spots. I hope, by the way, you don’t still have it and them. This is what I’d recommend:
1st thing: relax. Stress doesn’t help, but relaxing will allow your own body to start to function at its optimum capacity (yes, basic homoeostasis exists in all cultures dude, but has different explanations for it), to combat the root cause/ imbalance that has lead to the fever (and red spots, yeah, hmm, sounds nasty)
2nd thing: LeeT, thanks, you really hit the nail on the head. As yet, there is no CAM NHS A&E provision in this country. Only a few NHS hospitals exist, like the Royal London Homeopathic Hospital, but despite the Queen being it’s patron, and it’s huge success for 150 years, there are sinister signs that people like you want to close such institutions down, not open more:
(http://www.csoh.ca/PA_Int'l_RLHH_2007.htm).
So, at present, if you were very lucky, and could afford it, AND, you knew a CAM practitioner that did TCM/ homeopathy/ healing etc, who could see you immediately, you’d go there, and get an individualised treatment to really help you heal.
Otherwise, just go to the A&E department at a hospital, get either mis-diagnosed/ sent home with some pills that might work for a while, but not really fix you properly/ catch a hospital bug … and maybe even die, even maybe because there’s a mass murderer working there. Sadly, if people like you really got your way, you might well be classified as a mass murderer one day.
As I said, I am looking forward to the day ALL NHS hospitals have CAM provision, so that the health of our nation can REALLY improve, not just provide quick fixes that lead to later complications and horrendous side effects.
Thanks
“Otherwise, just go to the A&E department at a hospital, get either mis-diagnosed/ sent home with some pills that might work for a while, but not really fix you properly/ catch a hospital bug … and maybe even die, even maybe because there’s a mass murderer working there. Sadly, if people like you really got your way, you might well be classified as a mass murderer one day.”
But, I went to A&E when I was leaking blood at an alarming rate from a wound to my hand/arm, and was x-rayed, had the wound cleaned, sutured, tetanus-jabbed, given a dose of antibiotics in case of infection. Everyone involved , triage nurse, doctor, pharmacist and later OT seemed to me to be the very epitome of professionalism and skill.
I’m in (mostly) perfect health and have only the faintest of scars to show for my time in A&E.
So none of *your* A&E anecdote reflects *my* A&E experience. But as you should have gathered by now anecdote ain’t the same as data.
I have a degree in Medieval History also. Strange to say, mine taught me that theories had to be backed by evidence (because of a dearth of evidence in the period you could get away with arguing a lot of different things, but they still had to tally with historical and archaeological evidence).
Reality Check, I have indeed encountered doctors who were awful. I would hope that the ones who gave you dangerous treatment were referred on to the GMC for disciplinary procedures; yes, this self-regulatory system is not perfect, but it exists. No such framework exists for CAM. Are you claiming that every single person who practices CAM is perfect? Never makes mistakes? No rotten apples?
I like having a ‘clever’ system. It beats a ‘thick as pigshit system’ hands down every time.
I just came across this ridiculous debate from looking at the L4L website.
There are few people in this world who dedicate their lives to helping others, and to see them being slandered in this way is absolutely unforgivable.
It is pretty clear to me that for every 1 person who feels the CAM / energy healing approach is rubbish, there must be at least 100 people who feel it has bought about great improvements in their lives, otherwise there would never be such a fuss.
My message to those 1 in-a 100 people is this – please go and get a life and stop trying to ruin the lives of others who are trying their best to make a difference in the world
“But as you should have gathered by now anecdote ain’t the same as data.”
Hmm, I’m very glad to hear your *A&E anecdote* that you had your arm fixed. I also had some very good experiences from accidents when I was a kid, of those kinds of wounds being fixed. Some things western science does very well. Quick, superficial fixes. Anyway, LeeT was asking about a fever, not an arm wound. But, as you say, life is not just anecdotes, and believe me, I have plenty of data. And I’m living proof; living data that CAM works. Don’t forget, I went to Uni to study science, not creative writing.
As for M, did you report your awful GPs? If you read or understood what I said “Don’t get me wrong, I abhor cowboys in any field” you wouldn’t say what you said. I above all want to promote professional, responsible practitioners who are doing a great job out there, whatever they practice. I’ve met many of them so far.
Of course, every one makes mistakes, BUT WHEN ITS CAM PEOPLE, YOU GUYS WANT TO CRUCIFY THEM, ban them and say they are all bad. Not so when its a GP/ Specialist doctor… or a whole system. The GMC will always protect its own interests; you missed my point – when a clever system operates, it has to be right, even when it’s wrong, otherwise, the system will come crashing down. Just like the drugs companies, who employ senior physicians to promote their goods, and it appears have long since offered ‘incentives’ to GPs to peddle their designer drugs:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7263494.stm
” The number of prescriptions for anti-depressants hit a record high of more than 31 million in England in 2006 – even though official guidance stresses they should not be a first line treatment for mild depression.
There were 16.2m prescriptions for SSRIs alone.”
“The researchers found that the drugs did have a positive impact on people with mild depression – but the effect was no bigger than that achieved by giving patients a sugar-coated “dummy” pill.”
Alan Johnson, the Health Secretary, has announced that 3,600 therapists are to be trained during the next three years in England to increase patient access to talking therapies, which ministers see as a better alternative to drugs.”
Hooray! Some thing sensible is happening after all.
I also know some great GPs who were very supportive of my health choices, and still are. But they had open minds, which you, M, clearly, do not. If you have to resort to using abusive language, clearly it then looks like you really haven’t got anything of substance to say… shame.
“I like having a ‘clever’ system. It beats a ‘thick as pigshit system’ hands down every time”
The greatest people in the world discovered most amazing things by ignoring the system and imaging and creating new solutions which breaks down all the known rules.
I’m working in medical wellness and every day I have chance to meet people who had extreme health problems and they try really hard to follow “the system”.
“The system” which they regularly pay every month. At least in Germany.
After months or years they got completely frustrated with the whole process and they start to search for something else. Most of them managed to find a good alternative way to sort things out.
There are millions of people who are leaving “the system” and they finding new ways for health. This trend is drastically increasing
Personally, I had health insurance for 7 years and when I slowly discovered that they have nothing to offer, I cancel it. My best move ever.
I would always encourage people to do research. If you have a problem, leave your skepticism at home and try other ways. Before you try that something new, talk with people who have results from same methods and let them “sell” you the service.
If you decide to read all the bloggers who are sitting in their comfortable sofas and “blessing” us with their book & wikipedia knowledge you will just find yourself being afraid of your own shadow.
You have to develop personal experience and do some research by talking with people who have tried different things.
It has to be an experience from a first hand. When it comes to health, don’t trust anybody who didnt try by himself.
Leave all the bloggers and journalists to entertain themselves in their perfection.
The time of clever and educated philosophers is behind us. People need reality.
“The System” makes people extremely lazy. And laziness is a foundation for all other sicknesses.
My best insurance is my correct life style. It gives me a guarantee that I will live a long and happy life.
No insurance can do that. And no money can buy it.
Biggest victims of “the system” are people who are born with heavy disease and are not able to do personal search. This kind of people just get pushed in “The Sytem” which mostly just provide maintance for existing conditions and have no solutions for solving their problems.
Is it really hard to believe that there are some solutions out there which can solve their problems.
Humans are natural beings. Being healthy is natural. Why is so difficult to believe that there are some real natural solutions to solve EVERY sickness.
Does it have to be some complicated, brainy, laboratory, chemical & scalpel solutions?
Lift up your head and check around. Internet is a wonderful tool. Use it to discover something new. You will be surprised what kind of solutions are out there. I’m not telling you to blindly believe everything out there. Follow your own sense. And ask people who tried.
The team of people at L4L is one extremely enthusiastic group and I found them as pioneers in the field of health and medicine. Maybe because of their enthusiasm it can happened they will make few mistakes on the way or to miss to explain their methods but this does not deny their great results with dozens of people.
Please talk with people who got this great results before you sit on computer and throw all your stones at “evil organization”
I personally know hundreds of people who got tremendous results just by using only “Out Of System” methods.
The methods which are sounding very unreal when you read them in some blog. But you get real natural results without any side effects.
If you wish to speak with some of them I will gladly give their contact details.
Keep on good work, L4L!
You are not alone.
“Hmm, I’m very glad to hear your *A&E anecdote* that you had your arm fixed. I also had some very good experiences from accidents when I was a kid, of those kinds of wounds being fixed. Some things western science does very well. Quick, superficial fixes.”
You think triage is trivial? – you can spot a drunk from stroke?
You think stitching a wound so tissue is preserved and the wound heals is trivial?
you think understanding who infections arise and which antibiotic is best suited to treating the infection is trivial?
you think the work of OTs who restore use of peoples hands so they can spend time typing on blogs without pain is trivial?
‘cos I don’t.
I am not disputing that your experience has left you absolutely convinced CAM helped your IBD, Reality Check. But to science and medicine there are other explanations, e.g. spontaneous remission.
From the website of the National Association for Crohn’s and Colitis:
“The severity of the symptoms fluctuates unpredictably over time. Patients are likely to experience flare-ups in between intervals of remission or reduced symptoms”
So – cure by CAM or spontaneous remission? The answer is that we can’t tell, and that is why only proper trials give us answers.
Last time I comment on this burger! If you don’t read what I say, what can I do? If you take it all as negative criticism, what can I say?
“I also had some very good experiences from accidents when I was a kid, of those kinds of wounds being fixed. Some things western science does very well. Quick, superficial fixes.”
“Superficial”, as in superficial flesh and bone wounds, not deep sicknesses that actually emanate from the inside out… Eduardo just got his foot saved, and I’m very pleased about that, as an Arsenal fan! Football aside, “Quick fixes”, because CAM usually, but not always, takes time… time to heal the roots of the dis-ease. Sometimes western medicine can help delay slipping towards death, whilst the deeper problem is investigated by CAM later.
I hope you are feeling better now, because it sounds like maybe you are still a bit traumatised by your accident. Good luck. Keep blogging.
As for me, it’s beginning to seem that these kind of blog spots are not areas for rational discussion, but places for people to dump their negativity on any one/ thing who doesn’t fit in with being ‘normal’. Not being normal, though, is often what great people are – just look at Einstein, who was terrible at maths at school, totally wacky, came up with Quantum mechanics, that for sure the old school lot hated and thought was quackery… and now, the rest is history
Thanks
Just when I thought I could pack my lap top away… Dr Aust, are you a real doctor by the way, or a PhD? If you knew anything about the condition, and the severity of my situation, as my doctors did, then spontaneous remission was well past an option a long long time ago. That’s a fact. Sorry, I was expecting that one! That’s why I really didn’t expect CAM to work, and when it did, I was truly shocked. It was totally beyond my doctors comprehension too… which I guess is why they aren’t interested in how CAM works. It’s just too challenging for them, and you too, it seems.
Thanks
just look at Einstein, who was terrible at maths at school, totally wacky, came up with Quantum mechanics
He didn’t. The person most responsible for wave mechanics was Erwin Schroedinger.
Seeing as people seem to be interested – in a couple of months I should have the same professional qualification as Patrick Holford, I work with children with similar disabilites to some of those involved with L4L, and I’ve been treated by a homeopath for a year, as well as a few other sorts of CAM.
So I’ll repeat my questions, since no-one from L4L has answered yet:
Do the ‘practitioners’ to whom you refer people tell them to stop taking conventional medicine, or not? Why (not)?
Do they, or do they not, tell people that they can be cured with ‘energy’? If so, what evidence is this based on?
I look forward to a reply – thanks.
Gaby – I organise charity street collections. If you want to check official permission, every person with a bucket will have something official from the council giving them permission, and there will be someone on the street in charge with a letter from the council, with the date & positions where they are allowed to collect. You have the legal right to ask for these from anyone collecting, and they must show you them. Collectors must not approach you directly, or shout requesting directions.
Shome mishtake. Just to prove I’m only human, he he. You are so write burger man! He did E=Mc2, relativity… and also classical problems of statistical mechanics and their application to quantum theory, etc, etc. In fact, thanks to him, we discovered that electricity is made of waves, eh, no, particles, eh, no waves, eh… oh dear. Science doesn’t actually have a clear answer, does it… as I discovered at the age of 14. It always needs an x factor, for the unknown bit…
Quantum mechs… YES, it was mainly Schroedinger, and I remember well, having to solve the Schroedinger equation at Uni, and it was so cool when I did it. I felt so clever!!! But i still got totally sick as hell, and came as close to dying a horrible death as only in the worst nightmares… you never want. For all my clever science knowledge, I had no more answers then… and only got healthy by letting go… yippeeeeee.
If I can help others avoid what I went through, that’s really cool. AND KNOW, I really need to let go of this enery draining site, bye bye :)
Hello there, Nutritional Therapist – or should I just call you ‘Shazza’?
Rather sad comments but – heh – one that beautifully demonstrates your grasp on the topic. Its true, but a pity, that TV does add half a stone to your appearance in 2D, but luckily for viewers gives a relatively accurate reflection of level of intelligence.
ah, a doctor doesn’t actually have to have cancer to become qualified in treating patients with it. that remains the domain of the goji berry importers, etc etc
“You ‘quack attackers’, well, IF YOU’D HAVE HAD YOUR WAY, YOU’D HAVE BANNED CAM ALONG TIME AGO… AND HAVE MY DEATH AND MILLIONS OF OTHERS USING CAM ON YOUR HANDS… ”
so there are proven benefits of conventional medicine, then……
Reality Check
Thank you for your diagnosis. My story is certainly true. I am grateful for your diagnosis. Fortunately, the doctor who arrived immediately realised that my condition was meningitis –meningococcal septicaemia to be precise – and not a bit of stress. That’s why he called an ambulance rather than telling me to relax. Somebody later told me later that if there had been no medical intervention things would have turned nasty rather quickly. Anyway, not sure what those horrible people did but within a few weeks I had fully recovered.
Tell me why are you folks so often in a bad mood? Secondly – and I never miss an opportunity to ask this question – how would you define CAM? What is alternative medicine exactly? No one in the alternative medicine field seems to want to tell me.
“there are sinister signs that people like you want to close such institutions down, not open more” No I take a very liberal approach and have no desire to shut down CAM. However, unproven techniques should not be granted public money.
Lee