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	<title>Comments on: Visiting Professor Patrick Holford, Not Even for a Thousand Days</title>
	<atom:link href="http://holfordwatch.info/2008/06/25/visiting-professor-patrick-holford-not-even-for-a-thousand-days/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://holfordwatch.info/2008/06/25/visiting-professor-patrick-holford-not-even-for-a-thousand-days/</link>
	<description>The truth about Patrick Holford, media nutritionist</description>
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		<title>By: Claire</title>
		<link>http://holfordwatch.info/2008/06/25/visiting-professor-patrick-holford-not-even-for-a-thousand-days/comment-page-2/#comment-10186</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Claire]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 16:47:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holfordwatch.wordpress.com/?p=490#comment-10186</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[http://punditkitchen.com/2008/06/26/political-pictures-darth-vader-catholics-power-throne/

...couldn&#039;t resist!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://punditkitchen.com/2008/06/26/political-pictures-darth-vader-catholics-power-throne/" rel="nofollow">http://punditkitchen.com/2008/06/26/political-pictures-darth-vader-catholics-power-throne/</a></p>
<p>&#8230;couldn&#8217;t resist!</p>
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		<title>By: Claire</title>
		<link>http://holfordwatch.info/2008/06/25/visiting-professor-patrick-holford-not-even-for-a-thousand-days/comment-page-2/#comment-10182</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Claire]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 16:29:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holfordwatch.wordpress.com/?p=490#comment-10182</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Darth Vader is, I think, the more satisfying analogy.  Faust is, as a doctor of theology,  aware from the outset of the nature of the bargain he has made. He knowingly risks his immortal soul in exchange for power etc; and the impetus for this seems to be a hubristic sense that he deserves better than humdrum reality. Whereas DV is more a sad case of &#039;when good extra-terrestrials  go bad&#039; having started out with the noblest of intentions but perhaps without the critical self-awareness needed to stay anchored in evidence-based reality.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Darth Vader is, I think, the more satisfying analogy.  Faust is, as a doctor of theology,  aware from the outset of the nature of the bargain he has made. He knowingly risks his immortal soul in exchange for power etc; and the impetus for this seems to be a hubristic sense that he deserves better than humdrum reality. Whereas DV is more a sad case of &#8216;when good extra-terrestrials  go bad&#8217; having started out with the noblest of intentions but perhaps without the critical self-awareness needed to stay anchored in evidence-based reality.</p>
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		<title>By: Mulneton</title>
		<link>http://holfordwatch.info/2008/06/25/visiting-professor-patrick-holford-not-even-for-a-thousand-days/comment-page-2/#comment-10181</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mulneton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 15:35:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holfordwatch.wordpress.com/?p=490#comment-10181</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry on no issue but have found anagrams for Richard Dawkins=Dishrack Darwin and Le Canard Noir of Quackometer fame =Cranial Drone. Just for fun!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry on no issue but have found anagrams for Richard Dawkins=Dishrack Darwin and Le Canard Noir of Quackometer fame =Cranial Drone. Just for fun!</p>
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		<title>By: draust</title>
		<link>http://holfordwatch.info/2008/06/25/visiting-professor-patrick-holford-not-even-for-a-thousand-days/comment-page-2/#comment-10180</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[draust]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 13:54:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holfordwatch.wordpress.com/?p=490#comment-10180</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[PS Oops - I meant &quot;applied kinesiology&quot; of course.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PS Oops &#8211; I meant &#8220;applied kinesiology&#8221; of course.</p>
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		<title>By: draust</title>
		<link>http://holfordwatch.info/2008/06/25/visiting-professor-patrick-holford-not-even-for-a-thousand-days/comment-page-2/#comment-10179</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[draust]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 13:53:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holfordwatch.wordpress.com/?p=490#comment-10179</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Claire

I take your point, and I agree that at least when conventionally-trained people start down the &quot;Alt Therapy&quot; road they are largely sincere.  

But... the longer they continue down in that direction, and the more successful they are, the more they lose their sense of the divide between reality and Alternate Reality.  The phrase &quot;the road to Hell is paved with good intentions&quot; springs to mind.

Perhaps it is less of a strictly Faustian bargain, and more of a Darth Vader scenario (starts with desire to do something, grows frustrated with restrictions and rules and gradually gets more and more capricious and bonkers, until eventually....).

Contributing to this,  I would say, is the fact that mainstream people who DO embrace Alternative (Reality) &quot;Medicine&quot;  end up  hanging out professionally with more and more other Alternative Reality folk (like, for instance, the mixed bag of loons and apologists at the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.fih.org.uk/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Prince&#039;s Foundation for Integrated Health&lt;/a&gt;). Under these circumstances, the temptation to increasingly lose touch with evidence-based reality,  and embrace Alternative Reality in all its wackier forms, is clear.  I think you can see this trajectory in some of the conventional folk who have &quot;gone to the Darkside&quot;.  

But I&#039;m just as happy with Darth Vader as an analogy! 

Or perhaps I should call it &quot;&lt;i&gt;retrospectively&lt;/i&gt; Faustian&quot;. I do wonder whether people like Dr Briffa ever  think about this, when and if they reflect on the kind of mental contortions and doublethink they have to engage in to explain why things like &quot;&lt;del&gt;Alternative&lt;/del&gt; Applied Kinesiology&quot; are not bollocks (which they self-evidently are).

Anyway, perhaps that is more the sense in which I view it as &quot;Faustian&quot; - a sort of more retrospective &quot;crikey - was it worth it?&quot;

----
&lt;strong&gt;Admin edit as per following &lt;/strong&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://holfordwatch.info/2008/06/25/visiting-professor-patrick-holford-not-even-for-a-thousand-days/#comment-10180&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;comment&lt;/a&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Claire</p>
<p>I take your point, and I agree that at least when conventionally-trained people start down the &#8220;Alt Therapy&#8221; road they are largely sincere.  </p>
<p>But&#8230; the longer they continue down in that direction, and the more successful they are, the more they lose their sense of the divide between reality and Alternate Reality.  The phrase &#8220;the road to Hell is paved with good intentions&#8221; springs to mind.</p>
<p>Perhaps it is less of a strictly Faustian bargain, and more of a Darth Vader scenario (starts with desire to do something, grows frustrated with restrictions and rules and gradually gets more and more capricious and bonkers, until eventually&#8230;.).</p>
<p>Contributing to this,  I would say, is the fact that mainstream people who DO embrace Alternative (Reality) &#8220;Medicine&#8221;  end up  hanging out professionally with more and more other Alternative Reality folk (like, for instance, the mixed bag of loons and apologists at the <a href="http://www.fih.org.uk/" rel="nofollow">Prince&#8217;s Foundation for Integrated Health</a>). Under these circumstances, the temptation to increasingly lose touch with evidence-based reality,  and embrace Alternative Reality in all its wackier forms, is clear.  I think you can see this trajectory in some of the conventional folk who have &#8220;gone to the Darkside&#8221;.  </p>
<p>But I&#8217;m just as happy with Darth Vader as an analogy! </p>
<p>Or perhaps I should call it &#8220;<i>retrospectively</i> Faustian&#8221;. I do wonder whether people like Dr Briffa ever  think about this, when and if they reflect on the kind of mental contortions and doublethink they have to engage in to explain why things like &#8220;<del>Alternative</del> Applied Kinesiology&#8221; are not bollocks (which they self-evidently are).</p>
<p>Anyway, perhaps that is more the sense in which I view it as &#8220;Faustian&#8221; &#8211; a sort of more retrospective &#8220;crikey &#8211; was it worth it?&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8212;-<br />
<strong>Admin edit as per following </strong><a href="http://holfordwatch.info/2008/06/25/visiting-professor-patrick-holford-not-even-for-a-thousand-days/#comment-10180" rel="nofollow">comment</a></p>
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		<title>By: Claire</title>
		<link>http://holfordwatch.info/2008/06/25/visiting-professor-patrick-holford-not-even-for-a-thousand-days/comment-page-1/#comment-10177</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Claire]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 12:28:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holfordwatch.wordpress.com/?p=490#comment-10177</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Regarding the use of &quot;Faustian&quot; to describe people such as Dr John Briffa, I&#039;m afraid I feel a fit of ueber-nitpicking coming on.  First off, I&#039;m more familiar with Goethe&#039;s version than the Marlowe, and there are pertinent themes of hubris, but I think in both the  bargain is a conscious decision to &#039;go over to the dark side&#039; in order to access power, fame, knowledge etc. Perhaps I&#039;m being too charitable, but I don&#039;t think people like Dr B. have made such a bargain, i.e. consciously promoting pseudoscience in return for media fame and fortune.  Though perhaps it&#039;s more unsettling to contemplate that they&#039;re acting out of deeply felt conviction.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding the use of &#8220;Faustian&#8221; to describe people such as Dr John Briffa, I&#8217;m afraid I feel a fit of ueber-nitpicking coming on.  First off, I&#8217;m more familiar with Goethe&#8217;s version than the Marlowe, and there are pertinent themes of hubris, but I think in both the  bargain is a conscious decision to &#8216;go over to the dark side&#8217; in order to access power, fame, knowledge etc. Perhaps I&#8217;m being too charitable, but I don&#8217;t think people like Dr B. have made such a bargain, i.e. consciously promoting pseudoscience in return for media fame and fortune.  Though perhaps it&#8217;s more unsettling to contemplate that they&#8217;re acting out of deeply felt conviction.</p>
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		<title>By: brainduck</title>
		<link>http://holfordwatch.info/2008/06/25/visiting-professor-patrick-holford-not-even-for-a-thousand-days/comment-page-1/#comment-10175</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[brainduck]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holfordwatch.wordpress.com/?p=490#comment-10175</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dr Aust, agreed, which is why York describes what it does as &#039;Experimental Psychology&#039;: http://www.york.ac.uk/depts/psych/www/about/exppsych.shtml

Holford did have a decent chance to learn about how to read &amp; interpret evidence (or at least now he would, &amp; I&#039;ve been taught by at least one of the same people), it&#039;s not something medical training gives you a monopoly on. If he had done English Lit I&#039;d have had more sympathy for his confused-ness.

Thanks!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr Aust, agreed, which is why York describes what it does as &#8216;Experimental Psychology&#8217;: <a href="http://www.york.ac.uk/depts/psych/www/about/exppsych.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.york.ac.uk/depts/psych/www/about/exppsych.shtml</a></p>
<p>Holford did have a decent chance to learn about how to read &amp; interpret evidence (or at least now he would, &amp; I&#8217;ve been taught by at least one of the same people), it&#8217;s not something medical training gives you a monopoly on. If he had done English Lit I&#8217;d have had more sympathy for his confused-ness.</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: Dr Aust</title>
		<link>http://holfordwatch.info/2008/06/25/visiting-professor-patrick-holford-not-even-for-a-thousand-days/comment-page-1/#comment-10173</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dr Aust]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 09:10:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holfordwatch.wordpress.com/?p=490#comment-10173</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes - sorry Brainduck. I wasn&#039;t trying to imply that Psychology was not a proper degree. More that everything Patrick had done since was essentially free of inconvenient scientific reality.

For what it&#039;s worth, though, here&#039;s my tuppence worth on Psychology departments. A divide is often noticeable (at least at the academic staff level) between two groups; the people who are &quot;experimental&quot; psychologists (tests, &quot;instruments&quot;, data, scientific rigour etc etc)... And a second (hopefully smaller) group who largely dispense with science, and are into grand (sometimes social) theorising about &quot;the psychological basis of ABC&quot; or &quot;the social history of XYZ&quot;. This lot don&#039;t do data that much but are into hand-waving.

Now I freely admit that is a sweeping generalisation, based on seminars over the years and the odd examiners&#039; meeting. So feel free to shoot me down.  

And good luck with the degree result.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes &#8211; sorry Brainduck. I wasn&#8217;t trying to imply that Psychology was not a proper degree. More that everything Patrick had done since was essentially free of inconvenient scientific reality.</p>
<p>For what it&#8217;s worth, though, here&#8217;s my tuppence worth on Psychology departments. A divide is often noticeable (at least at the academic staff level) between two groups; the people who are &#8220;experimental&#8221; psychologists (tests, &#8220;instruments&#8221;, data, scientific rigour etc etc)&#8230; And a second (hopefully smaller) group who largely dispense with science, and are into grand (sometimes social) theorising about &#8220;the psychological basis of ABC&#8221; or &#8220;the social history of XYZ&#8221;. This lot don&#8217;t do data that much but are into hand-waving.</p>
<p>Now I freely admit that is a sweeping generalisation, based on seminars over the years and the odd examiners&#8217; meeting. So feel free to shoot me down.  </p>
<p>And good luck with the degree result.</p>
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		<title>By: brainduck</title>
		<link>http://holfordwatch.info/2008/06/25/visiting-professor-patrick-holford-not-even-for-a-thousand-days/comment-page-1/#comment-10172</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[brainduck]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 07:49:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holfordwatch.wordpress.com/?p=490#comment-10172</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dr Aust: &#039;I think the most Faustian figures in AltMed are not so much people like Patrick who are entirely Alt.Reality, but those who start from conventional medical scientific backgrounds and gradually lose the plot.&#039;

Oi! Holford did start off doing a sensible degree too, you know - I am fervently praying that tomorrow will have shown me to get slightly better marks than him at it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr Aust: &#8216;I think the most Faustian figures in AltMed are not so much people like Patrick who are entirely Alt.Reality, but those who start from conventional medical scientific backgrounds and gradually lose the plot.&#8217;</p>
<p>Oi! Holford did start off doing a sensible degree too, you know &#8211; I am fervently praying that tomorrow will have shown me to get slightly better marks than him at it.</p>
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		<title>By: clare</title>
		<link>http://holfordwatch.info/2008/06/25/visiting-professor-patrick-holford-not-even-for-a-thousand-days/comment-page-1/#comment-10171</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[clare]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 06:41:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holfordwatch.wordpress.com/?p=490#comment-10171</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Enteroguard is an excellent product]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Enteroguard is an excellent product</p>
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