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	<title>Comments on: Jerome Burne and Bio-Identical Hormone Replacement Therapy: Part 3</title>
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	<link>http://holfordwatch.info/2009/07/07/jerome-burne-and-bio-identical-hormone-replacement-therapy-part-3/</link>
	<description>The truth about Patrick Holford, media nutritionist</description>
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		<title>By: Rachel S</title>
		<link>http://holfordwatch.info/2009/07/07/jerome-burne-and-bio-identical-hormone-replacement-therapy-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-20954</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rachel S]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 20:08:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holfordwatch.info/?p=4584#comment-20954</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;You might be interested in the just released JAMA paper than finds a quantifiable (and small, 1 extra case per 8,300 women per year who are taking HRT) risk of ovarian cancer with all formulations of HRT including those that contain ‘bio-identicals’.&quot;

Really? 
It&#039;s always useful to look at the actual paper before jumping to conclusions--particularly when sometimes imprecise terms such as &quot;progestins&quot; are used. Sometimes &quot;progestins&quot; refers to a patentable quasi-progesterone drugs as distinct from human progesterone. Sometimes it is used more nebulously to include human progesterone. 
Standardized use of nomenclature would be welcome from the health industry,  but if bioidentical progesterone is included in the study perhaps you could point out the numbers as I only did a cursory reading.

But we do get this statement:

&quot;Combined therapy with norethisterone was associated with an increased risk of epithelial ovarian cancer (RR, 1.55; 95% CI, 1.36-1.76), which was not significantly different from the RRs associated with medroxyprogesterone, levonorgestrel, or cyproterone acetate (Table 3).&quot;

Here &quot;combined therapy&quot; (the almost always necessary opposing estrogens with a progestogen) only references &quot;progestins&quot; in the form of patentable quasi-progesterone drugs.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;You might be interested in the just released JAMA paper than finds a quantifiable (and small, 1 extra case per 8,300 women per year who are taking HRT) risk of ovarian cancer with all formulations of HRT including those that contain ‘bio-identicals’.&#8221;</p>
<p>Really?<br />
It&#8217;s always useful to look at the actual paper before jumping to conclusions&#8211;particularly when sometimes imprecise terms such as &#8220;progestins&#8221; are used. Sometimes &#8220;progestins&#8221; refers to a patentable quasi-progesterone drugs as distinct from human progesterone. Sometimes it is used more nebulously to include human progesterone.<br />
Standardized use of nomenclature would be welcome from the health industry,  but if bioidentical progesterone is included in the study perhaps you could point out the numbers as I only did a cursory reading.</p>
<p>But we do get this statement:</p>
<p>&#8220;Combined therapy with norethisterone was associated with an increased risk of epithelial ovarian cancer (RR, 1.55; 95% CI, 1.36-1.76), which was not significantly different from the RRs associated with medroxyprogesterone, levonorgestrel, or cyproterone acetate (Table 3).&#8221;</p>
<p>Here &#8220;combined therapy&#8221; (the almost always necessary opposing estrogens with a progestogen) only references &#8220;progestins&#8221; in the form of patentable quasi-progesterone drugs.</p>
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		<title>By: dvnutrix</title>
		<link>http://holfordwatch.info/2009/07/07/jerome-burne-and-bio-identical-hormone-replacement-therapy-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-20937</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dvnutrix]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 12:55:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holfordwatch.info/?p=4584#comment-20937</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you. Seems a little odd that the Reader&#039;s Digest came out before this Daily Mail piece but perhaps there is another book in the offing or an update to &lt;i&gt;Food Is Better Medicine Than Drugs&lt;/i&gt;.

Some very &quot;umm, interesting ideas&quot; - I should be inured to it by now but I&#039;m not.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you. Seems a little odd that the Reader&#8217;s Digest came out before this Daily Mail piece but perhaps there is another book in the offing or an update to <i>Food Is Better Medicine Than Drugs</i>.</p>
<p>Some very &#8220;umm, interesting ideas&#8221; &#8211; I should be inured to it by now but I&#8217;m not.</p>
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		<title>By: dvnutrix</title>
		<link>http://holfordwatch.info/2009/07/07/jerome-burne-and-bio-identical-hormone-replacement-therapy-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-20934</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dvnutrix]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 12:37:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holfordwatch.info/?p=4584#comment-20934</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You might be interested in the just released JAMA paper than finds a quantifiable (and small, 1 extra case per 8,300 women per year who are taking HRT) risk of ovarian cancer with &lt;b&gt;all formulations&lt;/b&gt; of HRT including those that contain &#039;bio-identicals&#039;.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://egmn.idsk.com/stories_global/36_ds_8164472.jsp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;News item about HRT and ovarian cancer&lt;/a&gt; (will replace with direct link to JAMA when it comes up).

Update: &lt;a href=&quot;http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/302/3/298&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Hormone Therapy and Ovarian Cancer&lt;/a&gt;.
Lina Steinrud Mørch, MSc; Ellen Løkkegaard, MD, PhD; Anne Helms Andreasen, MSc; Susanne Krüger-Kjær, MD, DrMSci; Øjvind Lidegaard, MD, DrMSci  JAMA. 2009;302(3):298-305.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You might be interested in the just released JAMA paper than finds a quantifiable (and small, 1 extra case per 8,300 women per year who are taking HRT) risk of ovarian cancer with <b>all formulations</b> of HRT including those that contain &#8216;bio-identicals&#8217;.</p>
<p><a href="http://egmn.idsk.com/stories_global/36_ds_8164472.jsp" rel="nofollow">News item about HRT and ovarian cancer</a> (will replace with direct link to JAMA when it comes up).</p>
<p>Update: <a href="http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/302/3/298" rel="nofollow">Hormone Therapy and Ovarian Cancer</a>.<br />
Lina Steinrud Mørch, MSc; Ellen Løkkegaard, MD, PhD; Anne Helms Andreasen, MSc; Susanne Krüger-Kjær, MD, DrMSci; Øjvind Lidegaard, MD, DrMSci  JAMA. 2009;302(3):298-305.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Horsewell</title>
		<link>http://holfordwatch.info/2009/07/07/jerome-burne-and-bio-identical-hormone-replacement-therapy-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-20924</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ian Horsewell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 08:01:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holfordwatch.info/?p=4584#comment-20924</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Definitely same author - in fact, some of the text seems pretty much identical. Not surprising, I suppose, as Reader&#039;s Digest prints edited/summarised articles that have originally appeared elsewhere. I can&#039;t find it online but perhaps a trial subscription would show more content at the RD website.

The doctors mentioned (Marian Gluck and John Moran) both show up online as having, umm, interesting ideas about treating menopausal symptoms and similar using nutritional supplements and offering a range of blood tests, details not given on the web site I saw.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Definitely same author &#8211; in fact, some of the text seems pretty much identical. Not surprising, I suppose, as Reader&#8217;s Digest prints edited/summarised articles that have originally appeared elsewhere. I can&#8217;t find it online but perhaps a trial subscription would show more content at the RD website.</p>
<p>The doctors mentioned (Marian Gluck and John Moran) both show up online as having, umm, interesting ideas about treating menopausal symptoms and similar using nutritional supplements and offering a range of blood tests, details not given on the web site I saw.</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel S</title>
		<link>http://holfordwatch.info/2009/07/07/jerome-burne-and-bio-identical-hormone-replacement-therapy-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-20902</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rachel S]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 18:47:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holfordwatch.info/?p=4584#comment-20902</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Unfortunately, there is no evidence to persuasively and conclusively demonstrate that the risks with bioidentical hormones are any less significant than with conventional hormone therapy. Consequently, an evidence-based approach is to apply the WHI risk and benefit findings to all hormone therapies.&quot;

That is not &quot;evidence-based&quot; science.
To reach a conclusion that &quot;all hormone therapies&quot; must be considered to have the same risk on the basis of insufficient evidence to prove otherwise is nonsense. 
Simply because a hormone and hormone-like drug happen to operate on a common receptor hardly gives evidence-based justification to conclude the side effects are the same, or even similar, particularly when the metabolization and action of the metabolites are well known to be very different. 
Ask yourself, for example, why MPA is not given to sustain risky pregnancies rather than real progesterone.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Unfortunately, there is no evidence to persuasively and conclusively demonstrate that the risks with bioidentical hormones are any less significant than with conventional hormone therapy. Consequently, an evidence-based approach is to apply the WHI risk and benefit findings to all hormone therapies.&#8221;</p>
<p>That is not &#8220;evidence-based&#8221; science.<br />
To reach a conclusion that &#8220;all hormone therapies&#8221; must be considered to have the same risk on the basis of insufficient evidence to prove otherwise is nonsense.<br />
Simply because a hormone and hormone-like drug happen to operate on a common receptor hardly gives evidence-based justification to conclude the side effects are the same, or even similar, particularly when the metabolization and action of the metabolites are well known to be very different.<br />
Ask yourself, for example, why MPA is not given to sustain risky pregnancies rather than real progesterone.</p>
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		<title>By: dvnutrix</title>
		<link>http://holfordwatch.info/2009/07/07/jerome-burne-and-bio-identical-hormone-replacement-therapy-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-20795</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dvnutrix]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 10:32:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holfordwatch.info/?p=4584#comment-20795</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, that&#039;s getting bang for buck from the same piece if it can be placed in several publications. However, it sounds more disturbing if the quotes tend to be from the clients rather than the medical people. One imagines that the clients that one would speak to would be the ones who are pleased with the BHT rather than those who experienced some of the same health issues or side-effects as with standard HRT.

I wonder how much of an expectation there is that might influence the client/patient perception that any irritating symptoms can&#039;t possibly be side-effects?

I must look out for the Reader&#039;s Digest version as any differences might be interesting and quite an insight into the expected audiences. Was it the same author (Jerome Burne)?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, that&#8217;s getting bang for buck from the same piece if it can be placed in several publications. However, it sounds more disturbing if the quotes tend to be from the clients rather than the medical people. One imagines that the clients that one would speak to would be the ones who are pleased with the BHT rather than those who experienced some of the same health issues or side-effects as with standard HRT.</p>
<p>I wonder how much of an expectation there is that might influence the client/patient perception that any irritating symptoms can&#8217;t possibly be side-effects?</p>
<p>I must look out for the Reader&#8217;s Digest version as any differences might be interesting and quite an insight into the expected audiences. Was it the same author (Jerome Burne)?</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Horsewell</title>
		<link>http://holfordwatch.info/2009/07/07/jerome-burne-and-bio-identical-hormone-replacement-therapy-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-20764</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ian Horsewell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 08:00:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holfordwatch.info/?p=4584#comment-20764</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[At the risk of pointing out something that has already been commented on - when checking the blog a lot of the names seemed vaguely familar and I went back to check my recent reading. I found an article - possibly a version of the one from the Maily Dail - in my father-in-law&#039;s April issue of Reader&#039;s Digest. It contains some of the same doctors (presumably private health practitioners) and the same vague references to research. Interestingly, the quotes in the article are from clients, talking about their lack of side-effects - getting the point over without any of the medical professionals having to be quoted telling less than the whole story.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At the risk of pointing out something that has already been commented on &#8211; when checking the blog a lot of the names seemed vaguely familar and I went back to check my recent reading. I found an article &#8211; possibly a version of the one from the Maily Dail &#8211; in my father-in-law&#8217;s April issue of Reader&#8217;s Digest. It contains some of the same doctors (presumably private health practitioners) and the same vague references to research. Interestingly, the quotes in the article are from clients, talking about their lack of side-effects &#8211; getting the point over without any of the medical professionals having to be quoted telling less than the whole story.</p>
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		<title>By: dvnutrix</title>
		<link>http://holfordwatch.info/2009/07/07/jerome-burne-and-bio-identical-hormone-replacement-therapy-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-20750</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dvnutrix]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 16:17:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holfordwatch.info/?p=4584#comment-20750</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Strongly agree. There have been too many occasions when an intervention &lt;b&gt;seemed&lt;/b&gt; like commonsense but it wasn&#039;t borne out in practice. One example today is a &lt;a href=&quot;http://tr.im/rwmB&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;revisiting of guidelines for fetal monitoring&lt;/a&gt;: it seemed that it would reduce the incidence of Cerebral Palsy etc. but in widespread practice, it is possible that it does more harm than good.

As you say, commercial BIH are regulated and carry warnings; it seems absurd that competitor products are not bound by similar standards when they hope to have a pharmaceutical effect but bypass the need for regulation by representing themselves as a different industry.

To quote &lt;a href=&quot;http://sciencebasedpharmacy.wordpress.com/2009/03/27/oil-of-oregano/#comment-185&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Chris MacDonald&lt;/a&gt;:&lt;blockquote&gt;The side-effects of drugs...only become known *because* they are carefully studied and monitored. Sometimes such discoveries are made later rather than sooner — but better that it’s well-studied than not.

...Drug companies are forced, by the legal and ethical standards that government them, to design drug trials carefully to rule out the dozens of ways in which personal, first-hand observation is likely to be biased. If drug companies were allowed to market a drug based solely on mere anecdotes from happy customers, can you imagine just how bad that would be?&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Strongly agree. There have been too many occasions when an intervention <b>seemed</b> like commonsense but it wasn&#8217;t borne out in practice. One example today is a <a href="http://tr.im/rwmB" rel="nofollow">revisiting of guidelines for fetal monitoring</a>: it seemed that it would reduce the incidence of Cerebral Palsy etc. but in widespread practice, it is possible that it does more harm than good.</p>
<p>As you say, commercial BIH are regulated and carry warnings; it seems absurd that competitor products are not bound by similar standards when they hope to have a pharmaceutical effect but bypass the need for regulation by representing themselves as a different industry.</p>
<p>To quote <a href="http://sciencebasedpharmacy.wordpress.com/2009/03/27/oil-of-oregano/#comment-185" rel="nofollow">Chris MacDonald</a>:<br />
<blockquote>The side-effects of drugs&#8230;only become known *because* they are carefully studied and monitored. Sometimes such discoveries are made later rather than sooner — but better that it’s well-studied than not.</p>
<p>&#8230;Drug companies are forced, by the legal and ethical standards that government them, to design drug trials carefully to rule out the dozens of ways in which personal, first-hand observation is likely to be biased. If drug companies were allowed to market a drug based solely on mere anecdotes from happy customers, can you imagine just how bad that would be?</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: dvnutrix</title>
		<link>http://holfordwatch.info/2009/07/07/jerome-burne-and-bio-identical-hormone-replacement-therapy-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-20749</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dvnutrix]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 16:06:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holfordwatch.info/?p=4584#comment-20749</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My interest in this is (as you recognise) &lt;i&gt;solely&lt;/i&gt; in the process of reviewing and evaluating evidence. If you are going to review evidence and adopt a stance based on it, then the evidence must be scrutinised in its entirety.

Bertolt Brecht pithily summed up the rationale for scrutinising evidence: &lt;i&gt;Life of Galileo&lt;/i&gt;: &lt;blockquote&gt;The aim of science is not to open the door to infinite wisdom, but to set a limit to infinite error.&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My interest in this is (as you recognise) <i>solely</i> in the process of reviewing and evaluating evidence. If you are going to review evidence and adopt a stance based on it, then the evidence must be scrutinised in its entirety.</p>
<p>Bertolt Brecht pithily summed up the rationale for scrutinising evidence: <i>Life of Galileo</i>:<br />
<blockquote>The aim of science is not to open the door to infinite wisdom, but to set a limit to infinite error.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://holfordwatch.info/2009/07/07/jerome-burne-and-bio-identical-hormone-replacement-therapy-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-20711</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scott]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 13:49:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holfordwatch.info/?p=4584#comment-20711</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Leslie

Unfortunately, there is no evidence to persuasively and conclusively demonstrate that the risks with bioidentical hormones are any less significant than with conventional hormone therapy. Consequently, an evidence-based approach is to apply the WHI risk and benefit findings to all hormone therapies.

Consumers that select pharmacy-compounded bioidentical hormones face additional risks, beyond that of the WHI - most importantly, batch-to-batch variation, and formulation differences, which means that safety and efficacy data, even from trials that have studied bioidentical hormones, cannot be considered to be applicable.

Bioidentical hormones that are commercially manufactured (yes, there are several) are subjected to evaluations of product quality, safety, efficacy, etc.  All carry appropriate warnings consistent with the findings of the WHI study.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Leslie</p>
<p>Unfortunately, there is no evidence to persuasively and conclusively demonstrate that the risks with bioidentical hormones are any less significant than with conventional hormone therapy. Consequently, an evidence-based approach is to apply the WHI risk and benefit findings to all hormone therapies.</p>
<p>Consumers that select pharmacy-compounded bioidentical hormones face additional risks, beyond that of the WHI &#8211; most importantly, batch-to-batch variation, and formulation differences, which means that safety and efficacy data, even from trials that have studied bioidentical hormones, cannot be considered to be applicable.</p>
<p>Bioidentical hormones that are commercially manufactured (yes, there are several) are subjected to evaluations of product quality, safety, efficacy, etc.  All carry appropriate warnings consistent with the findings of the WHI study.</p>
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